Received: from mail-qc0-f189.google.com ([209.85.216.189]:47908) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1Wau0O-0002Yi-Rn for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Thu, 17 Apr 2014 14:38:16 -0700 Received: by mail-qc0-f189.google.com with SMTP id e16sf215252qcx.16 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 2014 14:37:54 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=4PKP+1guOM1xbou2rIJm3qOd6daAUDnjv5rw5WxsdZM=; b=ZbvTwrOatuLO1oT3/xJR+d3wCXU0P3IEePJ8OgTWxEBbXV1FqOX8eGE/BOBL5cCQXp gm11s4J8yHbOe+Kc4ebVJWZuliI7QCMTsHqPR45vKkvYwGBoxIhCUOmFrZXZZ5ZGOTk6 ctPkCpQKAeONQWz7QQvOeloPUE8nQnRUGgWsS//GOSfqBZwmZ+RyLAat3bN7Ih6bGQn9 iVSFl+/6YoGiiL8/+0L/rYC9fqxI4+TvCmoEDpyRU1z4Mh/DSdb4ICFgSw2quiFv0toH GtP84FLVhjRU3Vs6AnEKKHuFTd/4u10q4HP7FdqfINd8nt3DnAUGRrxXlbAAtD5DbvyS l/1g== X-Received: by 10.140.30.196 with SMTP id d62mr85899qgd.27.1397770674535; Thu, 17 Apr 2014 14:37:54 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.140.80.107 with SMTP id b98ls1210133qgd.64.gmail; Thu, 17 Apr 2014 14:37:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.58.161.175 with SMTP id xt15mr8759317veb.19.1397770674229; Thu, 17 Apr 2014 14:37:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ve0-x233.google.com (mail-ve0-x233.google.com [2607:f8b0:400c:c01::233]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id fj1si6598113vdc.3.2014.04.17.14.37.54 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Thu, 17 Apr 2014 14:37:54 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:400c:c01::233 as permitted sender) client-ip=2607:f8b0:400c:c01::233; Received: by mail-ve0-f179.google.com with SMTP id db12so1353220veb.38 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 2014 14:37:54 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.220.163.3 with SMTP id y3mr10531581vcx.7.1397770673967; Thu, 17 Apr 2014 14:37:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.220.170.73 with HTTP; Thu, 17 Apr 2014 14:37:53 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2014 18:37:53 -0300 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Lojban semantics From: =?UTF-8?Q?Jorge_Llamb=C3=ADas?= To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: jjllambias@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:400c:c01::233 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=jjllambias@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a1133da667fd93104f743d8ae X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam_score: 0.0 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / --001a1133da667fd93104f743d8ae Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 On Thu, Apr 17, 2014 at 5:30 PM, shanoxilt < osiris_hades_deathland@hotmail.com> wrote: > > Here's his response: > > (Note that the "to each constant" part seems to suggest that Lojban > doesn't allow the use of function symbols as a part of its syntax. It might > be so or the writer just forgot their existence. Whether they are allowed > or not makes a great difference on the theoretical capabilities of the > language but, again, they are mostly not relevant to what I'm going to post > about so I'll mostly ignore them, too). > Lojban does have a small closed class of words that correspond to function symbols of valence 1 (selmaho LAhE) and another closed class that corresponds to function symbols of valence 2 (selma'o JOI), but its main open class corresponds to predicate symbos (BRIVLA). It is however possible to construct function expressions of any valence based on the predicate words ("lo broda be ... bei ... bei ...) and constants (i.e. functions of valence 0) can also be constructed out of predicates ("lo broda"). [...] > The reason why this is not a problem for Lojban speakers is that they > aren't actually doing any first-order reasoning with it. They are using it > in exactly the same way as they would use an ordinary language, together > with all the fuzziness and imprecision of such languages. Lojban in reality > is a completely ordinary language with a slightly unusual grammar. > Indeed, Lojban is used as an ordinary language, and its only peculiarity is that it was designed so that it can express first order predicate logic more or less directly. mu'o mi'e xorxes -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --001a1133da667fd93104f743d8ae Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

= On Thu, Apr 17, 2014 at 5:30 PM, shanoxilt <osiris_hades_= deathland@hotmail.com> wrote:

Here's his response:

=C2=A0(Note that t= he "to each constant" part seems to suggest that Lojban doesn'= ;t allow the use of function symbols as a part of its syntax. It might be s= o or the writer just forgot their existence. Whether they are allowed or no= t makes a great difference on the theoretical capabilities of the language = but, again, they are mostly not relevant to what I'm going to post abou= t so I'll mostly ignore them, too).

Lojban does have a small close= d class of words that correspond to function symbols of valence 1 (selmaho = LAhE) and another closed class that corresponds to function symbols of vale= nce 2 (selma'o JOI), but its main open class corresponds to predicate s= ymbos (BRIVLA). It is however possible to construct function expressions of= any valence based on the predicate words ("lo broda be ... bei ... be= i ...) and constants (i.e. functions of valence 0) can also be constructed = out of predicates ("lo broda").=C2=A0

=C2=A0[...]
The reason why this is not a problem for Lojban speakers is= that they aren't actually doing any first-order reasoning with it. The= y are using it in exactly the same way as they would use an ordinary langua= ge, together with all the fuzziness and imprecision of such languages. Lojb= an in reality is a completely ordinary language with a slightly unusual gra= mmar.

Indeed, Lojban is used as an o= rdinary language, and its only peculiarity is that it was designed so that = it can express first order predicate logic more or less directly.

mu'o mi'e xorxes

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