Received: from mail-ob0-f186.google.com ([209.85.214.186]:50379) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1WbDJe-0008WE-3Y for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Fri, 18 Apr 2014 11:15:23 -0700 Received: by mail-ob0-f186.google.com with SMTP id wo20sf467522obc.13 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 2014 11:15:04 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=mDoVm2v5j9qeNeRTIoLvxPZvuiTKnevFoBp3XdPW/bM=; b=XK8pt0gp3cYMlJ5sXowHCyuvZqL0pfQlw1CpD0S1Q1aZwetewwXlBxGLTDP+iOSHus WZ4HfV7Tle2Vn7mAKvR5rIOeLem/gddIKQi/S/dx3aS6Slm6p+VUhm+FWZiX6k7BeruZ 1vKk/Z8qnM9jxs6sSzqEtv7+e9ZyJQx9SUNvN3oGjnnWIBpAzAmlmpcfjkYughFM8gom obAgynQt387o6YLYj9o+U+bhcXdX/nBTEGpHzZBtXRtJ7d818d4Kx9VpsBQ5kf1XQ+p9 eFzJ6bqWt7jpNIIpRWq3X7vrAcTDmaGReaOZT9iCSUn8YofKF4VxeDaNMp+39fLB7G/U el3w== X-Received: by 10.140.94.71 with SMTP id f65mr34445qge.30.1397844903988; Fri, 18 Apr 2014 11:15:03 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.140.97.8 with SMTP id l8ls1657111qge.27.gmail; Fri, 18 Apr 2014 11:15:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.236.134.235 with SMTP id s71mr9225891yhi.55.1397844903657; Fri, 18 Apr 2014 11:15:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ve0-x22d.google.com (mail-ve0-x22d.google.com [2607:f8b0:400c:c01::22d]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id fj1si7027999vdc.3.2014.04.18.11.15.03 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Fri, 18 Apr 2014 11:15:03 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:400c:c01::22d as permitted sender) client-ip=2607:f8b0:400c:c01::22d; Received: by mail-ve0-f173.google.com with SMTP id oy12so3441868veb.18 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 2014 11:15:03 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.52.113.1 with SMTP id iu1mr3295762vdb.35.1397844903492; Fri, 18 Apr 2014 11:15:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.220.170.73 with HTTP; Fri, 18 Apr 2014 11:15:03 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2014 15:15:03 -0300 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] jbovlaste, vlatai, camxes and morphology From: =?UTF-8?Q?Jorge_Llamb=C3=ADas?= To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: jjllambias@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:400c:c01::22d as permitted sender) smtp.mail=jjllambias@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=bcaec547c623ec80d604f7552086 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam_score: 0.0 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / --bcaec547c623ec80d604f7552086 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 On Fri, Apr 18, 2014 at 2:21 PM, Riley Martinez-Lynch wrote: > > > - camxes parses {y} as "initialSpaces", but it is considered a cmavo > in jbovlaste. > > More generally, it will be parsed as a space not just initially, i.e. not as a word. The reason we did this was so that it would not, for example, be quoted with "zo", so that you are allowed to hesitate between "zo" and the word you want to quote. > > - camxes doesn't parse {bu} compounds like {denpa bu} as cmavo > > "denpa bu" is considered two words, not one cmavo. It can't be quoted with single-word quoter "zo". "zo denpa bu" is the quoted word "denpa" converted into a lerfu with "bu". > > - {ybu} is a "cmavo cluster" in jbovlaste but a single cmavo per camxes > > Yes, camxes considers this one a single word, Since "y" itself is not considered a word, it is not something that "bu" can attach to, and so in order to maintain "ybu" as a lerfu we had to make it a sui generis word. It can't be "y bu" because then "y" is just hesitation and "bu" will attach to whatever precedes it. It can be quoted with "zo". > > - {aierne} is a fu'ivla in jbovlaste but a "cmavo + fu'ivla" per camxes > > Yes, camxes considers i/u in iV uV to be semi-consonants and does not require a pause in front of them, so ".aierne" breaks up into two words, just as "caierne" does. > - {selda'ergau} is a fu'ivla in jbovlaste but a lujvo per camxes > > Yes, camxes allows the -r- hyphen in front of CVV cmavo always, not just when required. This is to facilitate lujvo making, so that if you already know the lujvo "da'ergau" and you then want to make a new lujvo by adding a rafsi in front, you don't have to remember to remove the hyphen. > > - > - {zei} compounds aren't recognized as lujvo by camxes (nor in vlatai: > jbovlaste has a workaround) > > Right, they are not considered a single word, they can't be quoted with "zo". > If you can offer verifications or corrections for any of these issues, > please respond here or add comments to the issues in github. > > I'd also like to know if there's consensus on which is more correct or > current: "cmavo cluster" (jbovlaste) or "compound cmavo" (CLL), or if > there's a distinction between these terms. > > I think they are just two names for the same thing. Perhaps "cmavo cluster" covers any string of cmavo (jbovlaste won't care if it makes any sense to cluster them together), while "compound cmavo" is probably meant to be a string of cmavo that occurs frequently in a grammatical context, but this is a distinction I just made up. mu'o mi'e xorxes -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --bcaec547c623ec80d604f7552086 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Fri, Apr 18, 2014 at 2:21 PM,= Riley Martinez-Lynch=C2=A0<shunpiker@gmail.com>=C2=A0wrot= e:
  • camxes parses {y} as "initialSpaces", bu= t it is considered a cmavo in jbovlaste.

More generally, it will be parsed as a space not just ini= tially, i.e. not as a word. The reason we did this was so that it would not= , for example, be quoted with "zo", so that you are allowed to he= sitate between "zo" and the word you want to quote.
  • camxes doesn't parse {bu} com= pounds like {denpa bu} as cmavo

"denpa bu" is conside= red two words, not one cmavo. It can't be quoted with single-word quote= r "zo". "zo denpa bu" is the quoted word "denpa&qu= ot; converted into a lerfu with "bu".=C2=A0
=C2=A0
  • {ybu} is a "= ;cmavo cluster" in jbovlaste but a single cmavo per camxes

Yes, camxes considers this one = a single word, Since "y" itself is not considered a word, it is n= ot something that "bu" can attach to, and so in order to maintain= "ybu" as a lerfu we had to make it a sui generis word. It can= 9;t be "y bu" because then "y" is just hesitation and &= quot;bu" will attach to whatever precedes it. It can be quoted with &q= uot;zo".=C2=A0
  • {aierne} is a fu'ivla in jbovlaste but a = "cmavo + fu'ivla" per camxes
Yes, camxes considers i/u in iV uV to be semi-= consonants and does not require a pause in front of them, so ".aierne&= quot; breaks up into two words, just as "caierne" does.

  • {selda'ergau} is a fu'= ivla in jbovlaste but a lujvo per camxes=C2=A0

Yes, camxes allows the -r- hyph= en in front of CVV cmavo always, not just when required. This is to facilit= ate lujvo making, so that if you already know the lujvo "da'ergau&= quot; and you then want to make a new lujvo by adding a rafsi in front, you= don't have to remember to remove the hyphen.
=C2=A0

  • {zei} co= mpounds aren't recognized as lujvo by camxes (nor in vlatai: jbovlaste = has a workaround)

Right, they are not consi= dered a single word, they can't be quoted with "zo".=C2=A0
=C2=A0
If you can offer verifications or corrections for any= of these issues, please respond here or add comments to the issues in gith= ub.

I'd also like to know if there's conse= nsus on which is more correct or current: "cmavo cluster" (jbovla= ste) or "compound cmavo" (CLL), or if there's a distinction b= etween these terms.

I think they are just two names for = the same thing. Perhaps "cmavo cluster" covers any string of cmav= o (jbovlaste won't care if it makes any sense to cluster them together)= , while "compound cmavo" is probably meant to be a string of cmav= o that occurs frequently in a grammatical context, but this is a distinctio= n I just made up.

mu'o mi'e xorxes

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