Received: from mail-qc0-f183.google.com ([209.85.216.183]:44280) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1WbWtp-0006A7-61 for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Sat, 19 Apr 2014 08:10:02 -0700 Received: by mail-qc0-f183.google.com with SMTP id m20sf677904qcx.0 for ; Sat, 19 Apr 2014 08:09:43 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject:mime-version :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=54lA98eUQr80S1n1qI1vsLB6FfAPORB1o1NNIduo+1I=; b=RKhnmhTGzzq46PbbcsVSa29tOLaO8wJndPYsQJeqrhvcEfttf16CeIKGfNsDeO2BAu 6b2zfqmZE5gw0EHRHNdHkVgJoBi2ke7m6sbPDiRF1o8curilIC+BrxIcVwkBWek/NGBj Qv8DWRPWT6WcaCaAOW2ero2Jr4gNETmgulpkVnsmz+TavIUn5lrWC4FUslGhBry/3Bex sqmGpBVY+AU350OBuGjaolA+mdad9s45KvX6pUGxMBeI+GdufmPujuvIzv9QcHOuYMjv kDw/eP+R1IbA68mO6xS+t8Ur0t7fSiXyLhRWdf+zxwRUed8vqL2xru2rqwPrtaabAnJU sKLA== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject:mime-version :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=54lA98eUQr80S1n1qI1vsLB6FfAPORB1o1NNIduo+1I=; b=0TzBVmn6rZkpemUgGEN0yCwOqzA0N8fF9LX/hiynxxohP5rZpw+dl9fYFtRJl8mihm IOxU51O3InMPCMv0nuC3RJcp1PGqcPkvfbiOeYAofbQoeVuAaQ7yBZwynFX1+tE0BIS6 ZJ7kwI4iiAO3N9q7qK9j15m3PUK/8RbJfVBrIyoOxBK/LkMK46dGnJrP6qX0HfUzGyk+ I0MXPByX2P0KNMSMv5BUAtP0Iw0FnZh/K1z7vQJ+hwnXW8QkzGUEwsVbDHLkbhlMbVUI XS3PjuFizyq+GKqvLY1Tay9/soxr7rLtF5wZkJBDAiEEvvr7WCHDmkURfMS0yHE11CCl uEew== X-Received: by 10.50.143.1 with SMTP id sa1mr247211igb.12.1397920183030; Sat, 19 Apr 2014 08:09:43 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.50.4.106 with SMTP id j10ls805461igj.40.canary; Sat, 19 Apr 2014 08:09:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.50.41.102 with SMTP id e6mr246150igl.7.1397920182407; Sat, 19 Apr 2014 08:09:42 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2014 08:09:41 -0700 (PDT) From: Riley Martinez-Lynch To: lojban@googlegroups.com Message-Id: <2092e5d7-d100-4ea1-a926-e2b68d158599@googlegroups.com> In-Reply-To: References: Subject: Re: [lojban] jbovlaste, vlatai, camxes and morphology MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: shunpiker@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_3343_19918448.1397920181405" X-Spam-Score: -0.1 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.1 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / ------=_Part_3343_19918448.1397920181405 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Thank you for your detailed reply! > >> - camxes parses {y} as "initialSpaces", but it is considered a cmavo >> in jbovlaste. >> >> >> - {ybu} is a "cmavo cluster" in jbovlaste but a single cmavo per >> camxes >> >> More generally, it will be parsed as a space not just initially, i.e. not > as a word. The reason we did this was so that it would not, for example, be > quoted with "zo", so that you are allowed to hesitate between "zo" and the > word you want to quote. > Yes, camxes considers this one a single word, Since "y" itself is not > considered a word, it is not something that "bu" can attach to, and so in > order to maintain "ybu" as a lerfu we had to make it a sui generis word. It > can't be "y bu" because then "y" is just hesitation and "bu" will attach to > whatever precedes it. It can be quoted with "zo". > In the cases of {y} and {ybu}, it sounds like no immediate action is required. They are correctly classified in jbovlaste, and unlikely to be used in new compounds added to jbovlaste. > >> - camxes doesn't parse {bu} compounds like {denpa bu} as cmavo >> >> "denpa bu" is considered two words, not one cmavo. It can't be quoted > with single-word quoter "zo". "zo denpa bu" is the quoted word "denpa" > converted into a lerfu with "bu". > In this case, it seems like jbovlaste should be updated and corrected: "cmavo cluster" is not accurate. Do you have a suggestion for what to call forms like this? "bu letterals" or just "letterals"? Incidentally, this classification does not appear to come from vlatai: It doesn't recognize {denpa bu} at all. > >> - {aierne} is a fu'ivla in jbovlaste but a "cmavo + fu'ivla" per >> camxes >> >> Yes, camxes considers i/u in iV uV to be semi-consonants and does not > require a pause in front of them, so ".aierne" breaks up into two words, > just as "caierne" does. > It sounds like the cmene and fu'ivla which are either rejected or reclassified by camxes or split into multiple words are not morphologically valid, and should be marked as invalid, or corrected so that they parse as intended, or both. > >> - {zei} compounds aren't recognized as lujvo by camxes (nor in >> vlatai: jbovlaste has a workaround) >> >> Right, they are not considered a single word, they can't be quoted with > "zo". > This case seems a lot like {denpa bu}: The category that jbovlaste is using is less accurate than it could be. Should these entries be reclassified as "zei lujvo"? Something else? I'd also like to know if there's consensus on which is more correct or >> current: "cmavo cluster" (jbovlaste) or "compound cmavo" (CLL), or if >> there's a distinction between these terms. >> > I think they are just two names for the same thing. Perhaps "cmavo > cluster" covers any string of cmavo (jbovlaste won't care if it makes any > sense to cluster them together), while "compound cmavo" is probably meant > to be a string of cmavo that occurs frequently in a grammatical context, > but this is a distinction I just made up. > Given that jbovlaste is not intended to store nonsense clusters of cmavo, it seems like it might make sense to adopt the CLL terminology and reclassify "cmavo clusters" as "compound cmavo". Any objections? -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. ------=_Part_3343_19918448.1397920181405 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thank you for your detailed reply!
    <= li>camxes parses {y} as "initialSpaces", but it is considered a cmavo in jb= ovlaste. 
  • {ybu} is a "cmavo cluster" in jbovlaste but a single cma= vo per camxes
More generally, it wi= ll be parsed as a space not just initially, i.e. not as a word. The reason = we did this was so that it would not, for example, be quoted with "zo", so = that you are allowed to hesitate between "zo" and the word you want to quot= e. 
Yes, camxes considers this one a sin= gle word, Since "y" itself is not considered a word, it is not something th= at "bu" can attach to, and so in order to maintain "ybu" as a lerfu we had = to make it a sui generis word. It can't be "y bu" because then "y" is just = hesitation and "bu" will attach to whatever precedes it. It can be quoted w= ith "zo". 

In the cases of {y} and {ybu}, it sounds like no immediate action = is required. They are correctly classified in jbovlaste, and unlikely to be= used in new compounds added to jbovlaste.
  • camxes do= esn't parse {bu} compounds like {denpa bu} as cmavo
"denpa bu" is considered two words, not one cmavo. It can't be qu= oted with single-word quoter "zo". "zo denpa bu" is the quoted word "denpa"= converted into a lerfu with "bu".

In this case, it seems like jbovlaste should be= updated and corrected: "cmavo cluster" is not accurate. Do you have a sugg= estion for what to call forms like this? "bu letterals" or just "letterals"= ? Incidentally, this classification does not appear to come from vlatai: It= doesn't recognize {denpa bu} at all. 
  • {aierne} is a fu'ivla in jbovlaste but a "cma= vo + fu'ivla" per camxes
Yes, camxes considers i/u in iV uV to be semi-= consonants and does not require a pause in front of them, so ".aierne" brea= ks up into two words, just as "caierne" does.
=

It sounds like the cmene and fu'ivla= which are either rejected or reclassified by camxes or split into multiple= words are not morphologically valid, and should be marked as invalid, or c= orrected so that they parse as intended, or both.
<= blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-l= eft-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;pa= dding-left:1ex">
  • {zei} compounds aren't reco= gnized as lujvo by camxes (nor in vlatai: jbovlaste has a workaround)
Right, they are not considered a s= ingle word, they can't be quoted with "zo". 

This case seems a lot like {denpa bu}: The c= ategory that jbovlaste is using is less accurate than it could be. Should t= hese entries be reclassified as "zei lujvo"? Something else?

=
I'd also li= ke to know if there's consensus on which is more correct or current: "cmavo= cluster" (jbovlaste) or "compound cmavo" (CLL), or if there's a distinctio= n between these terms.
I think they are just t= wo names for the same thing. Perhaps "cmavo cluster" covers any string of c= mavo (jbovlaste won't care if it makes any sense to cluster them together),= while "compound cmavo" is probably meant to be a string of cmavo that occu= rs frequently in a grammatical context, but this is a distinction I just ma= de up.

Given that j= bovlaste is not intended to store nonsense clusters of cmavo, it seems like= it might make sense to adopt the CLL terminology and reclassify "cmavo clu= sters" as "compound cmavo". Any objections?
 

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsub= scribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http:= //groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit http= s://groups.google.com/d/optout.
------=_Part_3343_19918448.1397920181405--