Received: from mail-qc0-f190.google.com ([209.85.216.190]:48400) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1WbXVS-0006JX-2o for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Sat, 19 Apr 2014 08:48:52 -0700 Received: by mail-qc0-f190.google.com with SMTP id w7sf682694qcr.17 for ; Sat, 19 Apr 2014 08:48:35 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=4X/ctQAwF+a6n+PtMx6LQE8gPkMbzF0EOCqYdHCTONw=; b=LPh0tiDbro95qtREoX8GW/xi0cAYogs3WBZTH5TNqIiE+yTF1Lm6Ymf9ze+Y3FAblG uO8aehKEaTizDYyJ3KUyIUAP2OydOS74DR/JVq3VzSMGi8brhXsBl1dLPcHu3Ik0tkMI a0qKjEC8Ca3pzkiarWSXv016354shna9usR34o1W7cqs3qWTUEP+BhUyParEmK/wDRAE CAQFXcJ0Ve4siGJfEU6Jfp3Ie6XnpAetoFQ36NPln3xN80EkdZN1Zezg86WK0PvGwE0T 6RgclyRT41GvP141dBlxdlOEWo70py/2hCa7fuzfLJb0ABiMI2CSzrCKZyK0aHeU3WnK ziTw== X-Received: by 10.140.102.150 with SMTP id w22mr196qge.9.1397922515834; Sat, 19 Apr 2014 08:48:35 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.140.44.72 with SMTP id f66ls1841941qga.47.gmail; Sat, 19 Apr 2014 08:48:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.58.112.97 with SMTP id ip1mr13906541veb.32.1397922515526; Sat, 19 Apr 2014 08:48:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ve0-x230.google.com (mail-ve0-x230.google.com [2607:f8b0:400c:c01::230]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id d8si7501304vdv.2.2014.04.19.08.48.35 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Sat, 19 Apr 2014 08:48:35 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:400c:c01::230 as permitted sender) client-ip=2607:f8b0:400c:c01::230; Received: by mail-ve0-f176.google.com with SMTP id db11so4971303veb.35 for ; Sat, 19 Apr 2014 08:48:35 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.52.249.105 with SMTP id yt9mr1220755vdc.34.1397922515420; Sat, 19 Apr 2014 08:48:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.220.170.73 with HTTP; Sat, 19 Apr 2014 08:48:35 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <2092e5d7-d100-4ea1-a926-e2b68d158599@googlegroups.com> References: <2092e5d7-d100-4ea1-a926-e2b68d158599@googlegroups.com> Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2014 12:48:35 -0300 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] jbovlaste, vlatai, camxes and morphology From: =?UTF-8?Q?Jorge_Llamb=C3=ADas?= To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: jjllambias@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:400c:c01::230 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=jjllambias@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=089e01536864f48b6704f767328b X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam_score: 0.0 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / --089e01536864f48b6704f767328b Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 On Sat, Apr 19, 2014 at 12:09 PM, Riley Martinez-Lynch wrote: > > "denpa bu" is considered two words, not one cmavo. It can't be quoted with >> single-word quoter "zo". "zo denpa bu" is the quoted word "denpa" converted >> into a lerfu with "bu". >> > > In this case, it seems like jbovlaste should be updated and corrected: > "cmavo cluster" is not accurate. Do you have a suggestion for what to call > forms like this? "bu letterals" or just "letterals"? Incidentally, this > classification does not appear to come from vlatai: It doesn't recognize > {denpa bu} at all. > >> >>> - {zei} compounds aren't recognized as lujvo by camxes (nor in >>> vlatai: jbovlaste has a workaround) >>> >>> Right, they are not considered a single word, they can't be quoted with >> "zo". >> > > This case seems a lot like {denpa bu}: The category that jbovlaste is > using is less accurate than it could be. Should these entries be > reclassified as "zei lujvo"? Something else? > "bu letteral" and "zei lujvo" sound fine to me. In lojban they'd be "zo bu zei lerfu" and "zo zei zei lujvo". "bu" and "zei" have to be deactivated with "zo" so they don't grab whatever word comes before. I'd also like to know if there's consensus on which is more correct or >>> current: "cmavo cluster" (jbovlaste) or "compound cmavo" (CLL), or if >>> there's a distinction between these terms. >>> >> I think they are just two names for the same thing. Perhaps "cmavo >> cluster" covers any string of cmavo (jbovlaste won't care if it makes any >> sense to cluster them together), while "compound cmavo" is probably meant >> to be a string of cmavo that occurs frequently in a grammatical context, >> but this is a distinction I just made up. >> > > Given that jbovlaste is not intended to store nonsense clusters of cmavo, > it seems like it might make sense to adopt the CLL terminology and > reclassify "cmavo clusters" as "compound cmavo". Any objections? > Perhaps the issue was that "compund cmavo" sounds as if the result of the compounding was a single cmavo, which it is not, so "cmavo cluster" (or "cmavo compound") is more accurate. mu'o mi'e xorxes -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --089e01536864f48b6704f767328b Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

= On Sat, Apr 19, 2014 at 12:09 PM, Riley Martinez-Lynch &l= t;shunpiker@gmail.= com> wrote:

"denpa bu" is considered two words, not one cmavo. It = can't be quoted with single-word quoter "zo". "zo denpa = bu" is the quoted word "denpa" converted into a lerfu with &= quot;bu".

In thi= s case, it seems like jbovlaste should be updated and corrected: "cmav= o cluster" is not accurate. Do you have a suggestion for what to call = forms like this? "bu letterals" or just "letterals"? In= cidentally, this classification does not appear to come from vlatai: It doe= sn't recognize {denpa bu} at all.=C2=A0
  • {zei} compounds aren't recognized as lujvo by camxes = (nor in vlatai: jbovlaste has a workaround)
Right, they are not considered a single = word, they can't be quoted with "zo".=C2=A0
=

This case seems a lot like {de= npa bu}: The category that jbovlaste is using is less accurate than it coul= d be. Should these entries be reclassified as "zei lujvo"? Someth= ing else?

"bu letteral" and &q= uot;zei lujvo" sound fine to me. In lojban they'd be "zo bu z= ei lerfu" and "zo zei zei lujvo".

"bu" and "zei" have to be deactivated with "zo&quo= t; so they don't grab whatever word comes before.

<= blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px= #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
I'd also like to know if there's consensus on= which is more correct or current: "cmavo cluster" (jbovlaste) or= "compound cmavo" (CLL), or if there's a distinction between = these terms.
I think they are just two names for the same thing.= Perhaps "cmavo cluster" covers any string of cmavo (jbovlaste wo= n't care if it makes any sense to cluster them together), while "c= ompound cmavo" is probably meant to be a string of cmavo that occurs f= requently in a grammatical context, but this is a distinction I just made u= p.

Given that jbovlas= te is not intended to store nonsense clusters of cmavo, it seems like it mi= ght make sense to adopt the CLL terminology and reclassify "cmavo clus= ters" as "compound cmavo". Any objections?

Perhaps the issue was that &qu= ot;compund cmavo" sounds as if the result of the compounding was a sin= gle cmavo, which it is not, so "cmavo cluster" (or "cmavo co= mpound") is more accurate.

mu'o mi'e xorxes
=C2=A0

--
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