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Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2014 14:48:33 -0300
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Subject: Re: [lojban] ti'enai
From: =?UTF-8?Q?Jorge_Llamb=C3=ADas?= <jjllambias@gmail.com>
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 Content preview:  On Sat, Apr 19, 2014 at 1:54 PM, v4hn <me@v4hn.de> wrote:
   > > The scale of {ba'a} always refers to an experience. > Either in the expected
    future, the present or the past. > The future/present/past of the ba'a scale
    is the time when the sppeaker gets the evidence for what they're saying,
   not the time when whatever it is they are talking about happens. http://www.lojban.org/tiki/BPFK+Section%3A+Evidentials
    [...] 
 
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On Sat, Apr 19, 2014 at 1:54 PM, v4hn <me@v4hn.de> wrote:

>
> The scale of {ba'a} always refers to an experience.
> Either in the expected future, the present or the past.
>

The future/present/past of the ba'a scale is the time when the sppeaker
gets the evidence for what they're saying, not the time when whatever it is
they are talking about happens.
http://www.lojban.org/tiki/BPFK+Section%3A+Evidentials

So it is possible to use "ba'a" to describe past events in which the
speaker did not participate (as in "I expect you had a good time at the
party yeaterday", I don't have confirmation yet, but I expect you will be
confirming it) or "ba'a nai" to talk about something that will happen in
the future ("I remember he will be leaving soon"). "ba'a cu'i" can also be
used to indicate that the speaker is realizing something as they speak, not
only to indicate that they are currently experiencing what they are
describing.


> {ti'e} on the other hand tags an utterance as hearsay, possibly
> with a focus on the uncertain truth value of the statement.
> {ti'enai} then implies "grounded" knowledge pe'i.
> So (pe'i) it would be reasonable to say {ti'enai li pa li pa te sumji li
> re},
> whereas the same sentence tagged with {ba'anai} sounds weird.


Perhaps that case is too simple to tag with "ba'a nai" because presumably
the speaker knows how to add one plus one and doesn't need to rely on
memory to know it's two, but then someone may say "ba'a nai li no sinso li
pai" because they remember it from having studied it even though they have
no other evidence that that is the case.

"ti'e nai" would mean "first hand knowledge" and "ba'a cu'i" "knowledge
that I'm getting right now", so sometimes they may both apply and sometimes
only one of them, or neither.

mu'o mi'e xorxes

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">=
On Sat, Apr 19, 2014 at 1:54 PM, v4hn <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mail=
to:me@v4hn.de" target=3D"_blank">me@v4hn.de</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><block=
quote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-w=
idth:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding=
-left:1ex">
<div class=3D""><br></div>
The scale of {ba&#39;a} always refers to an experience.<br>
Either in the expected future, the present or the past.<br></blockquote><di=
v><br></div><div>The future/present/past of the ba&#39;a scale is the time =
when the sppeaker gets the evidence for what they&#39;re saying, not the ti=
me when whatever it is they are talking about happens. =C2=A0<a href=3D"htt=
p://www.lojban.org/tiki/BPFK+Section%3A+Evidentials">http://www.lojban.org/=
tiki/BPFK+Section%3A+Evidentials</a></div>
<div><br></div><div>So it is possible to use &quot;ba&#39;a&quot; to descri=
be past events in which the speaker did not participate (as in &quot;I expe=
ct you had a good time at the party yeaterday&quot;, I don&#39;t have confi=
rmation yet, but I expect you will be confirming it) or &quot;ba&#39;a nai&=
quot; to talk about something that will happen in the future (&quot;I remem=
ber he will be leaving soon&quot;). &quot;ba&#39;a cu&#39;i&quot; can also =
be used to indicate that the speaker is realizing something as they speak, =
not only to indicate that they are currently experiencing what they are des=
cribing.=C2=A0</div>
<div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0p=
x 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-lef=
t-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><br>
{ti&#39;e} on the other hand tags an utterance as hearsay, possibly<br>
with a focus on the uncertain truth value of the statement.<br>
{ti&#39;enai} then implies &quot;grounded&quot; knowledge pe&#39;i.<br>
So (pe&#39;i) it would be reasonable to say {ti&#39;enai li pa li pa te sum=
ji li re},<br>
whereas the same sentence tagged with {ba&#39;anai} sounds weird.</blockquo=
te><div><br></div><div>Perhaps that case is too simple to tag with &quot;ba=
&#39;a nai&quot; because presumably the speaker knows how to add one plus o=
ne and doesn&#39;t need to rely on memory to know it&#39;s two, but then so=
meone may say &quot;ba&#39;a nai li no sinso li pai&quot; because they reme=
mber it from having studied it even though they have no other evidence that=
 that is the case.</div>
<div><br></div><div>&quot;ti&#39;e nai&quot; would mean &quot;first hand kn=
owledge&quot; and &quot;ba&#39;a cu&#39;i&quot; &quot;knowledge that I&#39;=
m getting right now&quot;, so sometimes they may both apply and sometimes o=
nly one of them, or neither.</div>
<div><br></div><div>mu&#39;o mi&#39;e xorxes</div><div><br></div></div></di=
v></div>

<p></p>

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