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Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2014 20:57:28 -0500
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Subject: Re: [lojban] ti'enai
From: Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com>
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  Conversely, couldn't   "ti'enai" mean "I haven't heard" ?

"xu do ba zvati lo nu la djorj  la keit co'a speni"
"ti'enai la'e se go'i" (=3D"no da jungau mi lo du'u la'e se go'i")

           --gejyspa


On Sat, Apr 19, 2014 at 12:48 PM, Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas <jjllambias@gmail.com=
>wrote:

>
> On Sat, Apr 19, 2014 at 1:54 PM, v4hn <me@v4hn.de> wrote:
>
>>
>> The scale of {ba'a} always refers to an experience.
>> Either in the expected future, the present or the past.
>>
>
> The future/present/past of the ba'a scale is the time when the sppeaker
> gets the evidence for what they're saying, not the time when whatever it =
is
> they are talking about happens.
> http://www.lojban.org/tiki/BPFK+Section%3A+Evidentials
>
> So it is possible to use "ba'a" to describe past events in which the
> speaker did not participate (as in "I expect you had a good time at the
> party yeaterday", I don't have confirmation yet, but I expect you will be
> confirming it) or "ba'a nai" to talk about something that will happen in
> the future ("I remember he will be leaving soon"). "ba'a cu'i" can also b=
e
> used to indicate that the speaker is realizing something as they speak, n=
ot
> only to indicate that they are currently experiencing what they are
> describing.
>
>
>> {ti'e} on the other hand tags an utterance as hearsay, possibly
>> with a focus on the uncertain truth value of the statement.
>> {ti'enai} then implies "grounded" knowledge pe'i.
>> So (pe'i) it would be reasonable to say {ti'enai li pa li pa te sumji li
>> re},
>> whereas the same sentence tagged with {ba'anai} sounds weird.
>
>
> Perhaps that case is too simple to tag with "ba'a nai" because presumably
> the speaker knows how to add one plus one and doesn't need to rely on
> memory to know it's two, but then someone may say "ba'a nai li no sinso l=
i
> pai" because they remember it from having studied it even though they hav=
e
> no other evidence that that is the case.
>
> "ti'e nai" would mean "first hand knowledge" and "ba'a cu'i" "knowledge
> that I'm getting right now", so sometimes they may both apply and sometim=
es
> only one of them, or neither.
>
> mu'o mi'e xorxes
>
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<div dir=3D"ltr">=C2=A0 Conversely, couldn&#39;t =C2=A0 &quot;ti&#39;enai&q=
uot; mean &quot;I haven&#39;t heard&quot; ?<div><br><div>&quot;xu do ba zva=
ti lo nu la djorj =C2=A0la keit co&#39;a speni&quot;</div></div><div>&quot;=
ti&#39;enai la&#39;e se go&#39;i&quot; (=3D&quot;no da jungau mi lo du&#39;=
u la&#39;e se go&#39;i&quot;)</div>
<div><br></div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0--gejyspa</div=
><div><br></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><br><div class=3D"gmai=
l_quote">On Sat, Apr 19, 2014 at 12:48 PM, Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas <span dir=3D=
"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jjllambias@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">jjllamb=
ias@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra">=
<br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div class=3D"">On Sat, Apr 19, 2014 at 1:54=
 PM, v4hn <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:me@v4hn.de" target=3D"_bl=
ank">me@v4hn.de</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-=
left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;p=
adding-left:1ex">
<div><br></div>
The scale of {ba&#39;a} always refers to an experience.<br>
Either in the expected future, the present or the past.<br></blockquote><di=
v><br></div></div><div>The future/present/past of the ba&#39;a scale is the=
 time when the sppeaker gets the evidence for what they&#39;re saying, not =
the time when whatever it is they are talking about happens. =C2=A0<a href=
=3D"http://www.lojban.org/tiki/BPFK+Section%3A+Evidentials" target=3D"_blan=
k">http://www.lojban.org/tiki/BPFK+Section%3A+Evidentials</a></div>

<div><br></div><div>So it is possible to use &quot;ba&#39;a&quot; to descri=
be past events in which the speaker did not participate (as in &quot;I expe=
ct you had a good time at the party yeaterday&quot;, I don&#39;t have confi=
rmation yet, but I expect you will be confirming it) or &quot;ba&#39;a nai&=
quot; to talk about something that will happen in the future (&quot;I remem=
ber he will be leaving soon&quot;). &quot;ba&#39;a cu&#39;i&quot; can also =
be used to indicate that the speaker is realizing something as they speak, =
not only to indicate that they are currently experiencing what they are des=
cribing.=C2=A0</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0p=
x 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-lef=
t-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><br>
{ti&#39;e} on the other hand tags an utterance as hearsay, possibly<br>
with a focus on the uncertain truth value of the statement.<br>
{ti&#39;enai} then implies &quot;grounded&quot; knowledge pe&#39;i.<br>
So (pe&#39;i) it would be reasonable to say {ti&#39;enai li pa li pa te sum=
ji li re},<br>
whereas the same sentence tagged with {ba&#39;anai} sounds weird.</blockquo=
te><div><br></div></div><div>Perhaps that case is too simple to tag with &q=
uot;ba&#39;a nai&quot; because presumably the speaker knows how to add one =
plus one and doesn&#39;t need to rely on memory to know it&#39;s two, but t=
hen someone may say &quot;ba&#39;a nai li no sinso li pai&quot; because the=
y remember it from having studied it even though they have no other evidenc=
e that that is the case.</div>

<div><br></div><div>&quot;ti&#39;e nai&quot; would mean &quot;first hand kn=
owledge&quot; and &quot;ba&#39;a cu&#39;i&quot; &quot;knowledge that I&#39;=
m getting right now&quot;, so sometimes they may both apply and sometimes o=
nly one of them, or neither.</div>

<div><br></div><div>mu&#39;o mi&#39;e xorxes</div><div><br></div></div></di=
v></div><div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5">

<p></p>

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</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div>

<p></p>

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