Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2014 12:11:12 -0700 (PDT)
From: ".neit." <kosmikconundrum@gmail.com>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
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Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: Imperative mi'o?
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doi dan.
=20
Thanks for that background!  The first two links really shed some light on=
=20
the issue for me, but the third link (Tsani's Interpretation) is over my=20
head.  I'll need to practice and learn more before I can wrap my head=20
around that one.
=20
As for IRC, I'd love to - but my job won't allow it...  Speaking of my job=
=20
- I really should get back to it.  I can tell already, posting on the=20
Lojban groups is going to turn into one of those bad habits I need to avoid=
=20
at work.  zo'obu
=20
Thanks again!
=20
mi'e .neit. mu'o

On Friday, April 25, 2014 12:51:06 PM UTC-4, Dan Ros=C3=A9n wrote:

> > That being said...  da poi lujvo zo'u da du zo gliban.=20
>
> Though {gliban} is not a lujvo, it is a cmevla. The common lujvo for=20
> English is {glibau}.
>
>  >  I suppose also that it does not matter that zo xau is not a cmavo
> =20
> Well, {xau} is a morphologically a cmavo (so in that sense it is indeed a=
=20
> cmavo), and those of the form xVV and xV'V are for experimental usages=20
> (such as {xa'o}, {xo'o}, {xo'e}).=20
>  =20
> > As for your other comment:  That makes sense.  lo'u do drani le'u state=
s
> > that you are-the-thing-that-is-right.=20
>
> Personally, I'm not really sure what can go into drani1, since there is=
=20
> also drani2... It seems that if {lo se cusku be do drani lo ka ce'u broda=
},=20
> then necessarily {do drani lo ka lo se cusku be ce'u broda}. But I will=
=20
> leave it for other brave souls to show how to correctly use {drani}.
> =20
> > On that note, I can also see how "lo se cusku be mi" is stronger than t=
he
> > malgli way of using possessives for everything (lo mi cusku).
>
> Well {lo mi se cusku}, which by definition is the same as {lo se cusku pe=
=20
> mi}, are also fine. What I really wanted to point out was the {se}.
> =20
> > What is the distinction between a property and an event?  Is it a=20
> subjective=20
> > matter of "how I want to express this particular thing," or is there an
> > objective distinction?
>
> In my opinion, the CLL is a bit confused about properties/{ka}. Some ligh=
t=20
> on the development of {ka} can be found here:
>
> http://www.tlg.uci.edu/~opoudjis/lojbanbrochure/lessons/lessacehu.html=20
>     (in particular the sentence "when {ka} was originally invented, {ce'u=
}=20
> didn't exist yet")
> http://www.lojban.org/tiki/ka,+du'u,+si'o,+ce'u,+zo'e=20
>     (more history)
>
> A current usage of {ka} is summed up in this excellent article by la tsan=
i:
>
> http://www.lojban.org/tiki/Tsani's+Interpretations:+Abstractors=20
>
> I suppose la tsani was inspired by la selpa'i, who writes:
>     "I'm sure Gua\spi has been an inspiration for those few, courageous, =
Lojbanists=20
> who went ahead and gave Gua\spi a closer look. Not only did it probably=
=20
> inspire the use of {sei}+{ke'a} as a bridi relative clause in Lojban, it=
=20
> also probably helped the {ka}-volution thanks to its very ce'u-esquegismu=
 definitions."
>     (buried in a slightly unrelated blog post=20
> http://selpahi.weebly.com/9/post/2013/06/recycling-some-coi-cmavo-not-coi=
-or-coi.html
> )
>
> Hopefully this might give you an idea about how {ka} is used, at least by=
=20
> some on IRC. My "creti'i" to you is to visit the IRC channel.
>
> mu'o
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><DIV>doi dan.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Thanks for that background!&nbsp; The first two links really shed some=
 light on the issue for me, but the third link (Tsani's Interpretation) is =
over my head.&nbsp; I'll need to practice and learn more before I can wrap =
my head around that one.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>As for IRC, I'd love to - but my job won't allow it...&nbsp; Speaking =
of my job - I really should get back to it.&nbsp; I can tell already, posti=
ng on the Lojban groups is going to turn into one of those bad habits I nee=
d to avoid at work.&nbsp; zo'obu</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Thanks again!</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>mi'e .neit. mu'o</DIV>
<DIV><BR>On Friday, April 25, 2014 12:51:06 PM UTC-4, Dan Ros=C3=A9n wrote:=
</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex=
; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex" class=3Dgmail_quote>
<DIV dir=3Dltr>&gt; That being said...&nbsp;&nbsp;da poi lujvo zo'u da du z=
o gliban. <BR><BR>Though {gliban} is not a lujvo, it is a cmevla. The commo=
n lujvo for English is {glibau}.<BR><BR>
<DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr>
<DIV>&gt;&nbsp; I suppose also that it does not matter that zo xau is not a=
 cmavo<BR></DIV></DIV>
<DIV class=3Dgmail_quote>
<DIV dir=3Dltr><BR>Well, {xau} is a morphologically a cmavo (so in that sen=
se it is indeed a cmavo), and those of the form xVV and xV'V are for experi=
mental usages (such as {xa'o}, {xo'o}, {xo'e}). <BR>&nbsp;=20
<DIV dir=3Dltr>&gt; As for your other comment:&nbsp;&nbsp;That makes sense.=
&nbsp;&nbsp;lo'u do drani le'u states<BR>&gt; that you are-the-thing-that-i=
s-right. <BR><BR>Personally, I'm not really sure what can go into drani1, s=
ince there is also drani2... It seems that if {lo se cusku be do drani lo k=
a ce'u broda}, then necessarily {do drani lo ka lo se cusku be ce'u broda}.=
 But I will leave it for other brave souls to show how to correctly use {dr=
ani}.<BR>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&gt; On that note, I can also see how "lo se cusku be mi" is stronger =
than the<BR>&gt; malgli way of using possessives for everything (lo mi cusk=
u).<BR><BR>Well {lo mi se cusku}, which by definition is the same as {lo se=
 cusku pe mi}, are also fine. What I really wanted to point out was the {se=
}.<BR></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;<BR>&gt; What is the distinction between a property and an event=
?&nbsp; Is it a subjective <BR>&gt; matter of "how I want to express this p=
articular thing," or is there an<BR>&gt; objective distinction?<BR><BR>In m=
y opinion, the CLL is a bit confused about properties/{ka}. Some light on t=
he development of {ka} can be found here:<BR><BR><A onmousedown=3D"this.hre=
f=3D'http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fwww.tlg.uci.edu%2F~opoudjis=
%2Flojbanbrochure%2Flessons%2Flessacehu.html\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75A=
FQjCNH-5Hde5ZbzF6Df8_PH5Qpf_1aSQQ';return true;" onclick=3D"this.href=3D'ht=
tp://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fwww.tlg.uci.edu%2F~opoudjis%2Flojb=
anbrochure%2Flessons%2Flessacehu.html\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNH-=
5Hde5ZbzF6Df8_PH5Qpf_1aSQQ';return true;" href=3D"http://www.tlg.uci.edu/~o=
poudjis/lojbanbrochure/lessons/lessacehu.html" target=3D_blank>http://www.t=
lg.uci.edu/~<WBR>opoudjis/lojbanbrochure/<WBR>lessons/lessacehu.html</A> <B=
R>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; (in particular the sentence "when {ka} was originally =
invented, {ce'u} didn't exist yet")<BR><A onmousedown=3D"this.href=3D'http:=
//www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fwww.lojban.org%2Ftiki%2Fka%2C%2Bdu\47=
u%2C%2Bsi\47o%2C%2Bce\47u%2C%2Bzo\47e\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNGM=
cm8y4B714K-ncFFyWq8WipqW5w';return true;" onclick=3D"this.href=3D'http://ww=
w.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fwww.lojban.org%2Ftiki%2Fka%2C%2Bdu\47u%2C=
%2Bsi\47o%2C%2Bce\47u%2C%2Bzo\47e\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNGMcm8y=
4B714K-ncFFyWq8WipqW5w';return true;" href=3D"http://www.lojban.org/tiki/ka=
,+du'u,+si'o,+ce'u,+zo'e" target=3D_blank>http://www.lojban.org/tiki/ka,<WB=
R>+du'u,+si'o,+ce'u,+zo'e</A> <BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; (more history)<BR><BR>=
A current usage of {ka} is summed up in this excellent article by la tsani:=
<BR><BR></DIV>
<DIV><A onmousedown=3D"this.href=3D'http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2=
F%2Fwww.lojban.org%2Ftiki%2FTsani\47s%2BInterpretations%3A%2BAbstractors\46=
sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNG02ITFtMAyb73-wAvyua97hAtcKQ';return true;=
" onclick=3D"this.href=3D'http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fwww.lo=
jban.org%2Ftiki%2FTsani\47s%2BInterpretations%3A%2BAbstractors\46sa\75D\46s=
ntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNG02ITFtMAyb73-wAvyua97hAtcKQ';return true;" href=3D"=
http://www.lojban.org/tiki/Tsani's+Interpretations:+Abstractors" target=3D_=
blank>http://www.lojban.org/tiki/<WBR>Tsani's+Interpretations:+<WBR>Abstrac=
tors</A> <BR><BR>I suppose la tsani was inspired by la selpa'i, who writes:=
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; "<SPAN><SPAN>I'm sure Gua\spi has been an inspiratio=
n for those few, courageous, </SPAN>Lojbanists who went ahead and gave Gua\=
spi a closer look. Not only did it probably inspire the use of {sei}+{ke'a}=
 as a bridi relative clause in Lojban, it also probably helped the {ka}-vol=
ution thanks to its very ce'u-esque</SPAN> gismu definitions."<BR>&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp; (buried in a slightly unrelated blog post <A onmousedown=3D"this.=
href=3D'http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fselpahi.weebly.com%2F9%2=
Fpost%2F2013%2F06%2Frecycling-some-coi-cmavo-not-coi-or-coi.html\46sa\75D\4=
6sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNEhrGvFg6hfhDOoWFddyEGsfQYQTA';return true;" onclic=
k=3D"this.href=3D'http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fselpahi.weebly=
.com%2F9%2Fpost%2F2013%2F06%2Frecycling-some-coi-cmavo-not-coi-or-coi.html\=
46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNEhrGvFg6hfhDOoWFddyEGsfQYQTA';return tru=
e;" href=3D"http://selpahi.weebly.com/9/post/2013/06/recycling-some-coi-cma=
vo-not-coi-or-coi.html" target=3D_blank>http://selpahi.weebly.com/9/<WBR>po=
st/2013/06/recycling-some-<WBR>coi-cmavo-not-coi-or-coi.html</A>)<BR><BR>Ho=
pefully this might give you an idea about how {ka} is used, at least by som=
e on IRC. My "creti'i" to you is to visit the IRC channel.<BR><BR>mu'o<BR><=
/DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></div>

<p></p>

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