Received: from mail-pd0-f187.google.com ([209.85.192.187]:59977) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1WfrE0-000788-0A for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Thu, 01 May 2014 06:40:40 -0700 Received: by mail-pd0-f187.google.com with SMTP id fp1sf669838pdb.14 for ; Thu, 01 May 2014 06:40:25 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=RthBnLK0XW8DfHO0eJduSASpaK4oQ05OHiKvpNELr70=; b=YfNMvy0Mbv7SPH/YHoPDdc3uQPhxd24H+U1qb60zUCDL/96GXPzWK++9weATz2KP2p CGUCQexjgdo3bH6+Q1I5XNJKmtqo6MAI4QcMZ7Q7JfWIpDA8+jiaA/+F2GXnO4gmkKgJ xBiN14hbXxiR+5q8iQzSnOOVMHP+ZGFh2717i4+W+kNXjst/wMUhhxbLRVNhSeXTeHBj XHa4GMGjGw4/Kf3SJNUPRYgd4GedqufVGx5ygXQ7WZKGhfNqQpKYtf0Ojvh3igZxgNct m0mEyz+hb2M2HzsOC6U8aA5lhTrvOvVGWOVTfQsxHQ4Ewn4BaGEQFB7BTMhgN2V6lfiK 1a5A== X-Received: by 10.50.73.98 with SMTP id k2mr62336igv.0.1398951625838; Thu, 01 May 2014 06:40:25 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.50.2.5 with SMTP id 5ls199129igq.4.canary; Thu, 01 May 2014 06:40:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.50.136.198 with SMTP id qc6mr1261204igb.4.1398951625208; Thu, 01 May 2014 06:40:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qc0-x236.google.com (mail-qc0-x236.google.com [2607:f8b0:400d:c01::236]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id n7si85589qcz.2.2014.05.01.06.40.24 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Thu, 01 May 2014 06:40:24 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:400d:c01::236 as permitted sender) client-ip=2607:f8b0:400d:c01::236; Received: by mail-qc0-f182.google.com with SMTP id e16so759286qcx.41 for ; Thu, 01 May 2014 06:40:24 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.229.112.5 with SMTP id u5mr13777353qcp.3.1398951624088; Thu, 01 May 2014 06:40:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.96.3.40 with HTTP; Thu, 1 May 2014 06:40:23 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <2941928.oxApUB7qzd@caracal> References: <1643618.rLEZhvptIB@caracal> <4135353.JHmNsxIZkQ@caracal> <2941928.oxApUB7qzd@caracal> Date: Thu, 1 May 2014 08:40:23 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Translating the Bible From: Michael Turniansky To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: mturniansky@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:400d:c01::236 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=mturniansky@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11330a749ca27b04f856cedf X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam_score: 0.0 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / --001a11330a749ca27b04f856cedf Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable (finally caught up to the tail here) On Sat, Mar 29, 2014 at 8:14 PM, Pierre Abbat wrote: > I think it's more important to dive in and start translating, rather than > argue about philosophy of translation. That said, here's a passage that > presents a problem: > > This morning, the verse (related somehow to the sermon) was Judges 12:6. > The > preacher is a native speaker of Spanish, which does not have the phoneme > /=CA=83/ > (though Old Spanish did). Both the NVI and the RV have "shibolet/sibolet"= . > The > LXX (Greek doesn't have /=CA=83/ either) says "=CE=9A=CE=B1=CE=B9 =CE=B5= =CE=B9=CF=80=CE=B1=CE=BD =CE=B1=CF=85=CF=84=CF=89 =C2=AB=CE=95=CE=B9=CF=80= =CE=BF=CE=BD =CE=B4=CE=B7 =CF=83=CF=84=CE=B1=CF=87=CF=85=CF=82=C2=BB > =CE=BA=CE=B1=CE=B9 > =CE=BF=CF=85 =CE=BA=CE=B1=CF=84=CE=B5=CF=85=CE=B8=CF=85=CE=BD=CE=B5 =CF= =84=CE=BF=CF=85 =CE=BB=CE=B1=CE=BB=CE=B7=CF=83=CE=B1=CE=B9 =CE=BF=CF=85=CF= =84=CF=89=CF=82" (And they said to him, "So say stalk", and > he > was not correct in speaking thus). ("Shibboleth" is Hebrew for a grain > stalk > and also occurs in the dream of seven big ears and seven scrawny ears.) H= ow > should we render it in Lojban, which does have /=CA=83/? > > .i lo gliadi goi ko'e cu ga'orgau lo grestu be la .iordan. fo lo fraimi g= oi > fo'a .i lo fraimi cliva cu cusku lu .e'o mi pagre li'u .i ko'e retsku lu > xu do > fraimi li'u .i fo'a dafsku lu nago'i li'u .i ko'e mi'esku lu ko cusku zo > stani > li'u .i fo'a naldra bacru cusku zo ctani .isemu'ibo ko'e catra fo'a ba'e > bu'u > lo grestu be la .iordan. > =D7=95=D6=B7=D7=99=D6=BC=D6=B4=D7=9C=D6=B0=D7=9B=D6=BC=D6=B9=D7=93 means = more to capture/seize than to close. So I would suggest "...lebna lo grestu pe la iarden (note spelling) fo lo fraimi..." As for =D7=A9=D7=81=D6=B4=D7=91=D6=BC=D6=B9=D7=9C=D6=B6=D7=AA, I agree with= Sebastian: ko cusku zo'oi cibolet (also, it doesn't only mean "stalk", but "running stream". Since the word is used completely devoid of the context of meaning (being only a single word used as a passcode), there is no reason to artificially pin it down to a single meaning, despite your cleverness in switching the c<->s mispronunciation in order to use stani) Also, in case I wasn't clear, you may fold my version of Esther ( http://www.lojban.org/tiki/Esther ) into your project. And FWIW dept, I do have a good working knowledge of Ancient Hebrew, and access to dozens of Jewish commentaries. I probably don't have time to actually do any translating, however. Esther took me a few months to craft in its final form. But if people have questions, I can answer. Also, for the name of God (which doesn't appear in the book of Esther), my personal preference, which I use when translating stuff, is "la cevn" for the tetragrammaton. and "la vlip" for Elo-him. YMMV. --gejyspa --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --001a11330a749ca27b04f856cedf Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

(finally caught up to the t= ail here)

On Sat, Mar 29, 2014 at 8:14 PM= , Pierre Abbat <phma@bezitopo.org> wrote:
I think it's more important to dive in and start trans= lating, rather than
argue about philosophy of translation. That said, here's a passage that=
presents a problem:

This morning, the verse (related somehow to the sermon) was Judges 12:6. Th= e
preacher is a native speaker of Spanish, which does not have the phoneme /= =CA=83/
(though Old Spanish did). Both the NVI and the RV have "shibolet/sibol= et". The
LXX (Greek doesn't have /=CA=83/ either) says "=CE=9A=CE=B1=CE=B9 = =CE=B5=CE=B9=CF=80=CE=B1=CE=BD =CE=B1=CF=85=CF=84=CF=89 =C2=AB=CE=95=CE=B9= =CF=80=CE=BF=CE=BD =CE=B4=CE=B7 =CF=83=CF=84=CE=B1=CF=87=CF=85=CF=82=C2=BB = =CE=BA=CE=B1=CE=B9
=CE=BF=CF=85 =CE=BA=CE=B1=CF=84=CE=B5=CF=85=CE=B8=CF=85=CE=BD=CE=B5 =CF=84= =CE=BF=CF=85 =CE=BB=CE=B1=CE=BB=CE=B7=CF=83=CE=B1=CE=B9 =CE=BF=CF=85=CF=84= =CF=89=CF=82" (And they said to him, "So say stalk", and he<= br> was not correct in speaking thus). ("Shibboleth" is Hebrew for a = grain stalk
and also occurs in the dream of seven big ears and seven scrawny ears.) How=
should we render it in Lojban, which does have /=CA=83/?

.i lo gliadi goi ko'e cu ga'orgau lo grestu be la .iordan. fo lo fr= aimi goi
fo'a .i lo fraimi cliva cu cusku lu .e'o mi pagre li'u .i ko= 9;e retsku lu xu do
fraimi li'u .i fo'a dafsku lu nago'i li'u .i ko'e mi= 9;esku lu ko cusku zo stani
li'u .i fo'a naldra bacru cusku zo ctani .isemu'ibo ko'e ca= tra fo'a ba'e bu'u
lo grestu be la .iordan.

=C2=A0 =D7=95=D6=B7= =D7=99=D6=BC=D6=B4=D7=9C=D6=B0=D7=9B=D6=BC=D6=B9=D7=93 means more to captur= e/seize than to close. =C2=A0So I would suggest "...lebna lo grestu pe= la iarden (note spelling) fo lo fraimi..."

As for=C2=A0=D7=A9=D7=81=D6=B4=D7=91= =D6=BC=D6=B9=D7=9C=D6=B6=D7=AA, I agree with Sebastian: =C2=A0ko cusku zo'oi cibolet= =C2=A0(also, it doesn't only mean "stalk", but "running= stream". =C2=A0Since the word is used completely devoid of the contex= t of meaning (being only a single word used as a passcode), there is no rea= son to artificially pin it down to a single meaning, despite your clevernes= s in switching the c<->s mispronunciation in order to use stani)

=C2=A0 Also, in case I wasn't = clear, you may fold my version of Esther =C2=A0(=C2=A0http://www= .lojban.org/tiki/Esther )=C2=A0into your project.
=C2=A0
=C2=A0 And FWIW dept, I do have = a good working knowledge of Ancient Hebrew, and access to dozens of Jewish = commentaries. =C2=A0I probably don't have time to actually do any trans= lating, however. =C2=A0Esther took me a few months to craft in its final fo= rm. =C2=A0But if people have questions, I can answer.

=C2=A0 Also, for the name of God (= which doesn't appear in the book of Esther), my personal preference, wh= ich I use when translating stuff, is "la cevn" for the tetragramm= aton. =C2=A0and "la vlip" for Elo-him. =C2=A0YMMV.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= =C2=A0 --gejyspa



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