Received: from mail-pa0-f62.google.com ([209.85.220.62]:57464) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1WfuTP-0000wN-FJ for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Thu, 01 May 2014 10:08:45 -0700 Received: by mail-pa0-f62.google.com with SMTP id ld10sf713739pab.17 for ; Thu, 01 May 2014 10:08:33 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject:mime-version :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=aPpSXxezxKfzmFyPbaaIkas0julW6HYCny+HF5q06XA=; b=TuImxsxsEO3/k2iFtSprVbbVq40Ud2dS/zX9Id1cy3XuE2zVfSwwdJjLBpzeJ9ECbi JjhNp38UFXWyoUjRnGzs6SP8FFkEOnra+nqIpkH1fGHLPxbrw9Dt4hGqUoNXjXp1qsDL dWQvfvIMFNpf9PQQUp8K8PIoxe2PD3yb4HjmAxbZKdF40IiVpJDblYnSrCZnTz4BRnDg aZGW+wgQ+UrjjHQkzTnhJNXk5VNewfJb5TpHCrnUaRwZj4Ttt4nGdkH5gnbPTbJbBFHu 9kHwoaoU5WdmWDl/W1A6s1e3F+kBh8eOWnds1LnfI0QZUPL3EPh9Yzcfnq8DAKzXSgr1 VfOw== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject:mime-version :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=aPpSXxezxKfzmFyPbaaIkas0julW6HYCny+HF5q06XA=; b=RUyo2CDxeFVhkENai5tG4fJ09GSjDA7/u5YNeKkzxOk7zfthsNDOHSUIH8RkmoZh93 mUygnRw1AUI0T47yNITP925hxOxVoG/hNqgniQf6neo73SH/y9N6D5pPY8+yi4N8+XjN zCDqdeqvTiSCxLnsT6AbwLyNaxvjNUlqE7ls3JkT2PV6IP3O1SzftS9V5GzmYSWborq5 VRaWmFR5GAjUbE4GL75Q2qygKPt/O9DdDwQlmRi5wk2a//xhApSoT+/Ah0hBhQRUomN2 7b6Fbwn+L/MT7vBM5OujFCAivv8d4tlw3n2emohs7fMsyCOV/D+A3j4nU1QbM1/Oabwy 7jvg== X-Received: by 10.182.97.195 with SMTP id ec3mr20423obb.30.1398964113143; Thu, 01 May 2014 10:08:33 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.182.200.165 with SMTP id jt5ls580806obc.70.gmail; Thu, 01 May 2014 10:08:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.182.229.4 with SMTP id sm4mr14544obc.32.1398964112528; Thu, 01 May 2014 10:08:32 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 1 May 2014 10:08:31 -0700 (PDT) From: ".neit." To: lojban@googlegroups.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <534ABC27.4000309@gmail.com> <534C3F91.1040806@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [lojban] vamji MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: kosmikconundrum@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_8_7355327.1398964111954" X-Spam-Score: -0.1 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.1 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / ------=_Part_8_7355327.1398964111954 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 > > I wonder how you would have defined vamji's argument structure if you >> had never seen vamji's definition as it stands in the gimste. >> > > I'm probably already too contaminated by it to contemplate that, but I'd > probably drop x4, at least. :) > > As one who is uncontaminated (meaning: seeing the definition of vamji for the very first time), I can say that upon reading the definition I first thought of the old phrase "My kingdom for a horse!" I havn't a clue to the phrases origins, but I understand it comes in the context of a defeated king pleading to his conquerors, saying that he is willing to exchange his entire kingdom to his conquerors for the price of a horse for him to flee on. To put the phrase in terms of vamji: [a horse] is equivalent in worth to [a kingdom] to a [defeated king] for the use of [fleeing upon]. I can't make out how "appreciation" would apply in x4, and I expect x4 would be used infrequently (hence, x4 is a good place for it I suppose.) Although, upon further reflection, I'd initially taken "appreciation" in the sense of "gratefulness". At it's barest, "appreciation" means "a full understanding of the meaning and importance of something." (for example: Since I bought the farm, I've gained an appreciation for spring rain.) This sense of "appreciation" is similar to "evaluation" but evaluation implies an impartial valuing of a thing, while "appreciation" implies that the thing is already valued to a certain degree. With that distinction in mind, perhaps the x1 place names the "certain degree" to which x2 is already valued in the eyes of x3, and x4 names the understanding by which x3 so values x2? This understanding will generally be described in terms of a thing's usefulness - hence "use". So x4 could act sort of like a "by standard" place? I guess I would fill x4 *in general* with the standard by which x3 values x2 the way he/she does in comparison to the amount {ni} of x1. By this interpretation, I think my "My kingdom for a horse!" analogy still stands. mi'e .neit. mu'o -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. ------=_Part_8_7355327.1398964111954 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I wonder how you would have defin= ed vamji's argument structure if you had never seen vamji's definition as i= t stands in the gimste.

I'm probably already too contaminated by it to contemplate that, b= ut I'd probably drop x4, at least. :)
 
 

As one who is uncontaminated (meaning: seeing the defin= ition of vamji for the very first time), I can say that upon reading the de= finition I first thought of the old phrase "My kingdom for a horse!"  = I havn't a clue to the phrases origins, but I understand it comes in the co= ntext of a defeated king pleading to his conquerors, saying that he is will= ing to exchange his entire kingdom to his conquerors for the price of a hor= se for him to flee on.

 

To put the phrase in terms of vamji:  [a horse] is= equivalent in worth to [a kingdom] to a [defeated king] for the use of [fl= eeing upon].

 

I can't make out how "appreciation" would apply in x4, = and I expect x4 would be used infrequently (hence, x4 is a good place for i= t I suppose.)  Although, upon further reflection, I'd initially taken = "appreciation" in the sense of "gratefulness".  At it's barest, "appre= ciation" means "a full understanding of the meaning and importance of somet= hing." (for example:  Since I bought the farm, I've gained an app= reciation for spring rain.)  This sense of "appreciation" is similar t= o "evaluation" but evaluation implies an impartial valuing of a thing, whil= e "appreciation" implies that the thing is already valued to a certain degr= ee. 

 

With that distinction in mind, perhaps the x1 place nam= es the "certain degree" to which x2 is already valued in the eyes of x3, an= d x4 names the understanding by which x3 so values x2?  This= understanding will generally be described in terms of a thing's usefulness= - hence "use".  So x4 could act sort of like a "by standard" place?&n= bsp;

 

I guess I would fill x4 *in general* with the standard = by which x3 values x2 the way he/she does in comparison to the amount = {ni} of x1.  By this interpretation, I think my "My kingdom for a hors= e!" analogy still stands.

 

mi'e .neit. mu'o

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsub= scribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http:= //groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit http= s://groups.google.com/d/optout.
------=_Part_8_7355327.1398964111954--