Received: from mail-vc0-f192.google.com ([209.85.220.192]:60772) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1Wfv2T-0001JI-4I for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Thu, 01 May 2014 10:44:59 -0700 Received: by mail-vc0-f192.google.com with SMTP id ij19sf731726vcb.19 for ; Thu, 01 May 2014 10:44:46 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject:mime-version :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=5O1kLREjUHPfwI5JTuJgiABRn6LJYJpHg2Z/y2wt1HM=; b=gnG6durgEWQUuBbllEFjluFQZA+53Tl81lyLRn3Hq5lVLVcUxX/pjp831+8g/qNVKp ZxYrxMZ49uDcMYmapTyueQr0KsmKSmeViF/poPX+iDcqcXMTSVeRJY1XsL60/e8+UTTW mdnzdaSlU52r/xbVAt3uIUVjBPNTqUCLegcqA2Fr4bAPYs90Ut4vJGUgVjWdH6A/C31c N1p/4IMENpIFFpr2TvYfP7wamJfwzJa7xXutcjN/qfQoUp+DiIKK05wPJ5iynLQ/sxAo 4ZUFryDy/58IAEap29QixEqSBr+ekZpYXep41wBuC/nDqtiZpaiLf9xX6Iear7y173Rk mHWw== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject:mime-version :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=5O1kLREjUHPfwI5JTuJgiABRn6LJYJpHg2Z/y2wt1HM=; b=GRjMItjSoevGrglcd3s8JuzkSzokYAmzl2GQnYQdZ9n29n6Vm51se22wt6j9jieqAz UCy1rcFeCn4NKLlw8hyDtd/A2pDfVfNM6GMF6CgENI25W0U36nEYSpIgi0BuxjziCf8m U03vwsATUPTyMJHGLcbgDEX9ClcQudY1/ZZP5QGPbadHfY6Rra693IwXzfRYxPWJi63k I4lMCzzOxq1hfy12u/ogzw41rOXCgKNRyrMv9CQFH+5D2Tm2zCfnOoaD6P/ShjSK8TVZ u54lmYoHClw9OxC1Rlcw0l4BtA9NJiyzhqG9hYkxqoC/mVFS7OtA2/ULM87/x0XLjF7s xNxQ== X-Received: by 10.182.204.42 with SMTP id kv10mr17763obc.33.1398966286850; Thu, 01 May 2014 10:44:46 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.182.111.168 with SMTP id ij8ls495304obb.3.gmail; Thu, 01 May 2014 10:44:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.182.96.133 with SMTP id ds5mr84047obb.16.1398966286319; Thu, 01 May 2014 10:44:46 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 1 May 2014 10:44:45 -0700 (PDT) From: ".neit." To: lojban@googlegroups.com Message-Id: <2919fe06-3aa3-46a8-a9f0-88f740ca2487@googlegroups.com> In-Reply-To: References: <534ABC27.4000309@gmail.com> <534C3F91.1040806@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [lojban] vamji MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: kosmikconundrum@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_26_20249396.1398966285804" X-Spam-Score: -0.1 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.1 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / ------=_Part_26_20249396.1398966285804 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 .o'anairu'e .u'u ta'o I agree with .xorxes. I got so wrapped around the axel with that word "appreciation" that I overlooked the fact that I basically made the same argument that la .xorxes. made. He just stated it better. He would have put the kingdom in the x1 place, and the horse in the x2 place. Which would have been better because the x1 place is a {ni} abstraction describing an amount, and that's what the phrase "My kingdom for a horse!" implies - that a horse has a value in the amount of {lo ni ... kei} a kingdom. And I think the "appreciation" part is just there to specify the kind of "use." If "appreciation" means "an understanding of the meaning and importance" that already exists (where "evaluation" implies that such understanding does not yet exist, and is in the process of being discovered), then "use/appreciation" could possibly be like a tanru "use-type-of-appreciation." ta'onai la .xorxes. .ie .io mi'e .neit. mu'o On Thursday, May 1, 2014 1:08:31 PM UTC-4, .neit. wrote: > I wonder how you would have defined vamji's argument structure if you >>> had never seen vamji's definition as it stands in the gimste. >>> >> >> I'm probably already too contaminated by it to contemplate that, but I'd >> probably drop x4, at least. :) >> >> > > > As one who is uncontaminated (meaning: seeing the definition of vamji for > the very first time), I can say that upon reading the definition I first > thought of the old phrase "My kingdom for a horse!" I havn't a clue to the > phrases origins, but I understand it comes in the context of a defeated > king pleading to his conquerors, saying that he is willing to exchange his > entire kingdom to his conquerors for the price of a horse for him to flee > on. > > > > To put the phrase in terms of vamji: [a horse] is equivalent in worth to > [a kingdom] to a [defeated king] for the use of [fleeing upon]. > > > > I can't make out how "appreciation" would apply in x4, and I expect x4 > would be used infrequently (hence, x4 is a good place for it I suppose.) > Although, upon further reflection, I'd initially taken "appreciation" in > the sense of "gratefulness". At it's barest, "appreciation" means "a full > understanding of the meaning and importance of something." (for example: > Since I bought the farm, I've gained an appreciation for spring rain.) > This sense of "appreciation" is similar to "evaluation" but evaluation > implies an impartial valuing of a thing, while "appreciation" implies that > the thing is already valued to a certain degree. > > > > With that distinction in mind, perhaps the x1 place names the "certain > degree" to which x2 is already valued in the eyes of x3, and x4 names the > understanding by which x3 so values x2? This understanding will generally > be described in terms of a thing's usefulness - hence "use". So x4 could > act sort of like a "by standard" place? > > > > I guess I would fill x4 *in general* with the standard by which x3 values > x2 the way he/she does in comparison to the amount {ni} of x1. By this > interpretation, I think my "My kingdom for a horse!" analogy still stands. > > > > mi'e .neit. mu'o > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. ------=_Part_26_20249396.1398966285804 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
.o'anairu'e .u'u ta'o I agree with .xorxes. = ;
 
I got so wrapped around the axel with that word "appreciation" that I = overlooked the fact that I basically made the same argument that la .xorxes= . made.  He just stated it better.  He would have put the kingdom= in the x1 place, and the horse in the x2 place.  Which would have bee= n better because the x1 place is a {ni} abstraction describing an amount, a= nd that's what the phrase "My kingdom for a horse!" implies - that a horse = has a value in the amount of {lo ni ... kei} a kingdom.  
 
And I think the "appreciation" part is just there to specify the kind = of "use."  If "appreciation" means "an understanding of the meaning an= d importance" that already exists (where "evaluation" implies that such und= erstanding does not yet exist, and is in the process of being discovered), = then "use/appreciation" could possibly be like a tanru "use-type-of-appreci= ation."
 
ta'onai
 
la .xorxes. .ie .io 
 
mi'e .neit. mu'o

On Thursday, May 1, 2014 1:08:31 PM UTC-4, .neit. wrote:
I wonder how you would have defin= ed vamji's argument structure if you had never seen vamji's definition as i= t stands in the gimste.

I'm probably already too contaminated by it to contemplate that, b= ut I'd probably drop x4, at least. :)
 
 

As one who is uncontamin= ated (meaning: seeing the definition of vamji for the very first time), I c= an say that upon reading the definition I first thought of the old phrase "= My kingdom for a horse!"  I havn't a clue to the phrases origins, but = I understand it comes in the context of a defeated king pleading to his con= querors, saying that he is willing to exchange his entire kingdom to his co= nquerors for the price of a horse for him to flee on.

 

To put the phrase in ter= ms of vamji:  [a horse] is equivalent in worth to [a kingdom] to a [de= feated king] for the use of [fleeing upon].

 

I can't make out how "ap= preciation" would apply in x4, and I expect x4 would be used infrequently (= hence, x4 is a good place for it I suppose.)  Although, upon further r= eflection, I'd initially taken "appreciation" in the sense of "gratefulness= ".  At it's barest, "appreciation" means "a full understanding of the = meaning and importance of something." (for example:  Since I boug= ht the farm, I've gained an appreciation for spring rain.)  This sense= of "appreciation" is similar to "evaluation" but evaluation implies an imp= artial valuing of a thing, while "appreciation" implies that the thing is a= lready valued to a certain degree. 

 

With that distinction in= mind, perhaps the x1 place names the "certain degree" to which x2 is alrea= dy valued in the eyes of x3, and x4 names the understanding by which x= 3 so values x2?  This understanding will generally be described i= n terms of a thing's usefulness - hence "use".  So x4 could act sort o= f like a "by standard" place? 

 

I guess I would fill x4 = *in general* with the standard by which x3 values x2 the way he/she do= es in comparison to the amount {ni} of x1.  By this interpretation, I = think my "My kingdom for a horse!" analogy still stands.

 

mi'e .neit. mu'o<= /P>

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