Date: Thu, 15 May 2014 09:41:33 -0700 (PDT)
From: Dustin Lacewell <dlacewell@gmail.com>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
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 <20140515173852.477d9f55@aol.com>
Subject: [lojban] Re: Lojban's leadership and how I don't give a shit about it
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Wuzzy, thanks for giving us a good amount of information to understand your=
=20
position. Would I be interpreting your tone correctly, if I put down as a=
=20
Nay? I only ask because some people have deferred from voting and your=20
views about the invalidity of voting and leadership in general could=20
indicate perhaps if you felt more along that line. Anyway, if you could=20
just clarify for our sake that would help.

Regarding where authority, such as mine to send out such a nomination and=
=20
hold a vote comes directly from those who vote. Similarly, any authority=20
granted to selpa'i to manage integrations comes directly from those that=20
support him in doing so.=20

And that comes back on what exactly is the consequence of such an=20
appointment. Your words expose a fear to me that selpahi will some how be=
=20
solely responsible for the creation of proposals let alone their=20
integration. This just isn't the intention. Lojban will still be accessible=
=20
to everyone who wishes to think deeply and creatively with the aim of=20
improving the language. Furthermore such proposals do not go straight from=
=20
their author to selpa'i's approval. That would be impractical for sure. I=
=20
hope that I can clearly convey that what is going on here is giving all the=
=20
people who have an opinion on things that should change, a venue for=20
advertising and seeking consensus on changes and mostly important a=20
generally agreed upon mechanism for finalizing that consensus into the=20
language. This is the role selpahi will be taking on. Its so very important=
=20
for us to be able to distinguish between selpahi having the responsibility=
=20
of merging changes into the language, and selpahi having the sole=20
responsibility of managing the languages creative process.

Finally, to respond to the question of just what percent of respondents=20
much vote positively for this motion to be actualized I would to say a=20
couple things. Let's consider the situation now. We don't have any means=20
through which to fix cludges in the grammar or lexicon. We do have many=20
people thinking about how to improve these cludges. Some say that we should=
=20
orchestrate a massive formalized tome detailing how to implement a direct=
=20
democracy, explicitly delineating protocols and how hearings and so on=20
should be carried out. I applaud those people for thinking so grandly.=20
However, I and a number who already agree with this motion that the reality=
=20
is that such a clinical simply is not practical in the modern community of=
=20
lojban. Those who have the fortitude and strength to spend large amount of=
=20
their time thinking creatively and critically about lojban do so because=20
they are passionate about the thing itself. Lojban. To ask them to gate=20
their efforts behind the willingness to architect, orchestrate and carry=20
out a large bureaucracy just isn't realistic as far as one can tell. This=
=20
is synonymous to the nature of this poll. We are polling for a general=20
attitude of the community. Contingent upon a momentum in either direction=
=20
of self-evident magnitudes the motion will either be carried out naturally=
=20
or not. Nothing will be done if this completely divides the community. Who=
=20
could desire such a result after all? I know that I am safe speaking for=20
all who are helping to organize this campaign and those who have already=20
spoken in favor of it, the intention to help Lojban directly. It has=20
nothing to do with selpa'i's ego, anyone else's ego, power, authority or=20
anything. I hope I have framed this appropriately and respectably.=20

On Thursday, May 15, 2014 8:38:52 AM UTC-7, Wuzzy wrote:
>
> The actual question to me is weather Lojban *needs* some kind of
> leadership.=20
>
> To give the leadership as you described to a single person also has=20
>
> I disagree with the voting in itself and I think it=E2=80=99s nonsense.=
=20
> It is completely meaningless to me. Even if selpa'i gets elected to=20
> =E2=80=A6 well =E2=80=A6 the leader of Lojban xD =E2=80=A6 I won=E2=80=99=
t neccessarily recognize=20
> his authority. Simply because nobody can tell me how to use any=20
> language! :P=20
> (But I try hard to stick to standards, so I can be understood.)=20
> Accepting the voting process=20
> in itself would mean I first recognize YOUR authority to cast out=20
> a vote and to claim success or failure of that vote afterwards.=20
> When do you think is the vote successful, anyways? Over 50%?=20
> Over 66.666%? When does the vote even end? Which votes do even count?=20
> Etc. etc. etc.=20
> Hey, even I could start a vote today and get major support, but=20
> that does not neccessarily mean the voting result is reasonable.=20
> Any kind of democracy is based on a logical fallacy. Just because=20
> many people are in favor of X, it does not mean X actually makes sense.=
=20
>
> And before you ask, no, I also never recognized R.L.Powell as a leader.=
=20
>
> Maybe selpa'i will flesh out some good proposals or improve existing=20
> ones. Maybe I will support them or not. I don=E2=80=99t know, I haven=E2=
=80=99t looked=20
> into many of them. Maybe I shoulod change that?=20
> But no matter the proposals, I accept selpa'i as a Lojbanist, but=20
> I don=E2=80=99t accept him as a leader.=20
>
> I value proposals on how good they are, not solely on where they come=20
> from. It is true that selpa'i has a long history in Lojban, but this=20
> alone does not justify as him or anyone else being a leader.=20
> In my eyes leadership is irrational. You suggest that way to go to=20
> resolve dispute is to install a leader. But in reality, a leader=20
> would be simply just another party, possibly arguing for another=20
> position. But the leadership position is somehow accepted as =E2=80=9Cmor=
e=20
> valuable=E2=80=9D as the other positions. Sorry, but if you want to convi=
nce=20
> ME that <INSERT PROPOSAL HERE> is good, you=E2=80=99d have to bring bette=
r=20
> arguments than =E2=80=9C<INSERT LEADER HERE> said it!=E2=80=9D. This is t=
he reason=20
> why I think it is irrational.=20
> And even if that leader has a long commitment to a topic, that does not=
=20
> necessarily mean that leader would continue that way. Humans make=20
> mistakes, that=E2=80=99s normal. But if a leader makes a mistake, the imp=
act=20
> is large.=20
>

--=20
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<div dir=3D"ltr">Wuzzy, thanks for giving us a good amount of information t=
o understand your position. Would I be interpreting your tone correctly, if=
 I put down as a Nay? I only ask because some people have deferred from vot=
ing and your views about the invalidity of voting and leadership in general=
 could indicate perhaps if you felt more along that line. Anyway, if you co=
uld just clarify for our sake that would help.<div><br></div><div>Regarding=
 where authority, such as mine to send out such a nomination and hold a vot=
e comes directly from those who vote. Similarly, any authority granted to s=
elpa'i to manage integrations comes directly from those that support him in=
 doing so.&nbsp;</div><div><br></div><div>And that comes back on what exact=
ly is the consequence of such an appointment. Your words expose a fear to m=
e that selpahi will some how be solely responsible for the creation of prop=
osals let alone their integration. This just isn't the intention. Lojban wi=
ll still be accessible to everyone who wishes to think deeply and creativel=
y with the aim of improving the language. Furthermore such proposals do not=
 go straight from their author to selpa'i's approval. That would be impract=
ical for sure. I hope that I can clearly convey that what is going on here =
is giving all the people who have an opinion on things that should change, =
a venue for advertising and seeking consensus on changes and mostly importa=
nt a generally agreed upon mechanism for finalizing that consensus into the=
 language. This is the role selpahi will be taking on. Its so very importan=
t for us to be able to distinguish between selpahi having the responsibilit=
y of merging changes into the language, and selpahi having the sole respons=
ibility of managing the languages creative process.</div><div><br></div><di=
v>Finally, to respond to the question of just what percent of respondents m=
uch vote positively for this motion to be actualized I would to say a coupl=
e things. Let's consider the situation now. We don't have any means through=
 which to fix cludges in the grammar or lexicon. We do have many people thi=
nking about how to improve these cludges. Some say that we should orchestra=
te a massive formalized tome detailing how to implement a direct democracy,=
 explicitly delineating protocols and how hearings and so on should be carr=
ied out. I applaud those people for thinking so grandly. However, I and a n=
umber who already agree with this motion that the reality is that such a cl=
inical simply is not practical in the modern community of lojban. Those who=
 have the fortitude and strength to spend large amount of their time thinki=
ng creatively and critically about lojban do so because they are passionate=
 about the thing itself. Lojban. To ask them to gate their efforts behind t=
he willingness to architect, orchestrate and carry out a large bureaucracy =
just isn't realistic as far as one can tell. This is synonymous to the natu=
re of this poll. We are polling for a general attitude of the community. Co=
ntingent upon a momentum in either direction of self-evident magnitudes the=
 motion will either be carried out naturally or not. Nothing will be done i=
f this completely divides the community. Who could desire such a result aft=
er all? I know that I am safe speaking for all who are helping to organize =
this campaign and those who have already spoken in favor of it, the intenti=
on to help Lojban directly. It has nothing to do with selpa'i's ego, anyone=
 else's ego, power, authority or anything. I hope I have framed this approp=
riately and respectably.&nbsp;<br></div><div><br>On Thursday, May 15, 2014 =
8:38:52 AM UTC-7, Wuzzy wrote:<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"ma=
rgin: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;border-left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;">=
The actual question to me is weather Lojban *needs* some kind of<br>leaders=
hip.
<br>
<br>To give the leadership as you described to a single person also has=20
<br>
<br>I disagree with the voting in itself and I think it=E2=80=99s nonsense.=
=20
<br>It is completely meaningless to me. Even if selpa'i gets elected to
<br>=E2=80=A6 well =E2=80=A6 the leader of Lojban xD =E2=80=A6 I won=E2=80=
=99t neccessarily recognize
<br>his authority. Simply because nobody can tell me how to use any
<br>language! :P
<br>(But I try hard to stick to standards, so I can be understood.)
<br>Accepting the voting process
<br>in itself would mean I first recognize YOUR authority to cast out
<br>a vote and to claim success or failure of that vote afterwards.
<br>When do you think is the vote successful, anyways? Over 50%?
<br>Over 66.666%? When does the vote even end? Which votes do even count?
<br>Etc. etc. etc.
<br>Hey, even I could start a vote today and get major support, but
<br>that does not neccessarily mean the voting result is reasonable.
<br>Any kind of democracy is based on a logical fallacy. Just because
<br>many people are in favor of X, it does not mean X actually makes sense.
<br>
<br>And before you ask, no, I also never recognized R.L.Powell as a leader.
<br>
<br>Maybe selpa'i will flesh out some good proposals or improve existing
<br>ones. Maybe I will support them or not. I don=E2=80=99t know, I haven=
=E2=80=99t looked
<br>into many of them. Maybe I shoulod change that?
<br>But no matter the proposals, I accept selpa'i as a Lojbanist, but
<br>I don=E2=80=99t accept him as a leader.
<br>
<br>I value proposals on how good they are, not solely on where they come
<br>from. It is true that selpa'i has a long history in Lojban, but this
<br>alone does not justify as him or anyone else being a leader.
<br>In my eyes leadership is irrational. You suggest that way to go to
<br>resolve dispute is to install a leader. But in reality, a leader
<br>would be simply just another party, possibly arguing for another
<br>position. But the leadership position is somehow accepted as =E2=80=9Cm=
ore
<br>valuable=E2=80=9D as the other positions. Sorry, but if you want to con=
vince
<br>ME that &lt;INSERT PROPOSAL HERE&gt; is good, you=E2=80=99d have to bri=
ng better
<br>arguments than =E2=80=9C&lt;INSERT LEADER HERE&gt; said it!=E2=80=9D. T=
his is the reason
<br>why I think it is irrational.
<br>And even if that leader has a long commitment to a topic, that does not
<br>necessarily mean that leader would continue that way. Humans make
<br>mistakes, that=E2=80=99s normal. But if a leader makes a mistake, the i=
mpact
<br>is large.
<br></blockquote></div></div>

<p></p>

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