Date: Thu, 15 May 2014 17:15:46 -0700 (PDT)
From: Dustin Lacewell <dlacewell@gmail.com>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Message-Id: <cd216817-2b4b-4fc4-8f63-7c66962956a1@googlegroups.com>
In-Reply-To: <20140516015036.1f762326@aol.com>
References: <25B055499F67420FA34794323F9A95AB@gmail.com>
 <20140515173852.477d9f55@aol.com>
 <ea1b88d5-3c46-4f71-907a-d9e593d145d3@googlegroups.com>
 <20140516015036.1f762326@aol.com>
Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: Lojban's leadership and how I don't give a shit
 about it
MIME-Version: 1.0
Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Precedence: list
Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com
Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; 
	boundary="----=_Part_124_30157152.1400199346451"
X-Spam_score: -0.1
X-Spam_score_int: 0
X-Spam_bar: /

------=_Part_124_30157152.1400199346451
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Thursday, May 15, 2014 4:50:36 PM UTC-7, Wuzzy wrote:
>
> Now that I know what this is *not* about, I would like to know what=20
> this poll/vote/proposal/whatever is *really* about.=20


> It seems I have missed the point.=20
>
> What position and functions exactly *do* you propose for selpa'i?=20
> You response confused me slightly.=20
> Maybe this whole thing makes more sense to discuss if we know what=20
> we=E2=80=99re actually talking about. ;-)=20
>

I'm sorry. I tried to not only explain what selpa'i would not be doing, but=
=20
also what he would be responsible for. Here are a couple messages from my=
=20
response:

"I hope that I can clearly convey that what is going on here is giving all=
=20
the people who have an opinion on things that should change, a venue for=20
advertising and seeking consensus on changes and *mostly important a=20
generally agreed upon mechanism for finalizing that consensus into the=20
language. This is the role selpahi will be taking on.*"

"Its so very important for us to be able to distinguish between *selpahi=20
having the responsibility of merging changes into the language,* and=20
selpahi having the sole responsibility of managing the languages creative=
=20
process."

And from the original message:

"However without an active leadership many of these modifications remain in=
=20
conversational limbo where they are discussed for years in vain since *ther=
e=20
is no explicit mechanism for integration into the language or lexicon*."

"*selpa'i would be the figurehead for the re-activation of this explicit=20
mechanism for integration*. If you are familiar with software development,=
=20
this responsibility is synonymous with that of a repository maintainer. In=
=20
that sense,* he will have the authority to merge pull requests back into=20
the repository thereby making the change "official"*."

To summarize, if the above is not illuminating, selpahi will be replacing=
=20
Robin in the role of approving and making official any changes to the=20
language.
=20

>
> Besides: Does selpa'i even *want* such a position? I think this point=20
> is especially important. If not, this discussion would be really=20
> senseless. xD=20
>

I agree it would be senseless, so I can assure you that everything I have=
=20
said is only by the full approval of selpahi. If for some reason that can't=
=20
be trusted, I have no doubt that selaphi will confirm since we've been in=
=20
direct communication throughout this entire process.

All of that said, I personally hope we (including everyone who has approved=
=20
this measure) can eventually help you see the positive pragmatism of the=20
motion. We really believe this is what Lojban needs, not what selpahi=20
deserves. The aim isn't to tell anyone in particular how they should use=20
lojban, but to make lojban reflective of the ideals and usage of its modern=
=20
userbase.

If anyone else has any questions, concerns, or would like to demonstrate=20
their positive or negative disposition on this matter please feel invited=
=20
to do so.=20

--=20
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "=
lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e=
mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

------=_Part_124_30157152.1400199346451
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><br>On Thursday, May 15, 2014 4:50:36 PM UTC-7, Wuzzy =
wrote:<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-left: 0.8=
ex;border-left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;">Now that I know what thi=
s is *not* about, I would like to know what
<br>this poll/vote/proposal/whatever is *really* about.&nbsp;</blockquote><=
blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;bord=
er-left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;">
<br>It seems I have missed the point.
<br>
<br>What position and functions exactly *do* you propose for selpa'i?
<br>You response confused me slightly.
<br>Maybe this whole thing makes more sense to discuss if we know what
<br>we=E2=80=99re actually talking about. ;-)
<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I'm sorry. I tried to not only explain=
 what selpa'i would not be doing, but also what he would be responsible for=
. Here are a couple messages from my response:<br></div><div><br></div><div=
>"<span style=3D"font-family: arial, sans-serif;">I hope that I can clearly=
 convey that what is going on here is giving all the people who have an opi=
nion on things that should change, a venue for advertising and seeking cons=
ensus on changes and <i>mostly important a generally agreed upon mechanism =
for finalizing that consensus into the language. This is the role selpahi w=
ill be taking on.</i>"</span></div><div><span style=3D"font-family: arial, =
sans-serif;"><br></span></div><div><span style=3D"font-family: arial, sans-=
serif;">"</span><span style=3D"font-family: arial, sans-serif;">Its so very=
 important for us to be able to distinguish between <i>selpahi having the r=
esponsibility of merging changes into the language,</i> and selpahi having =
the sole responsibility of managing the languages creative process."</span>=
</div><div><i><span style=3D"font-family: arial, sans-serif;"><br></span></=
i></div><div><font face=3D"arial, sans-serif">And from the original message=
:</font></div><div><font face=3D"arial, sans-serif"><br></font></div><div><=
font face=3D"arial, sans-serif">"</font>However without an active leadershi=
p many of these modifications remain in conversational limbo where they are=
 discussed for years in vain since <i>there is no explicit mechanism for in=
tegration into the language or lexicon</i>."</div><div><br></div><div>"<i>s=
elpa'i would be the figurehead for the re-activation of this explicit mecha=
nism for integration</i>. If you are familiar with software development, th=
is responsibility is synonymous with that of a repository maintainer. In th=
at sense,<i> he will have the authority to merge pull requests back into th=
e repository thereby making the change "official"</i>."</div><div><i><br></=
i></div><div>To summarize, if the above is not illuminating, selpahi will b=
e replacing Robin in the role of approving and making official any changes =
to the language.</div><div>&nbsp;</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" st=
yle=3D"margin: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;border-left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-lef=
t: 1ex;">
<br>Besides: Does selpa'i even *want* such a position? I think this point
<br>is especially important. If not, this discussion would be really
<br>senseless. xD
<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I agree it would be senseless, so I ca=
n assure you that everything I have said is only by the full approval of se=
lpahi. If for some reason that can't be trusted, I have no doubt that selap=
hi will confirm since we've been in direct communication throughout this en=
tire process.</div><div><br></div><div>All of that said, I personally hope =
we (including everyone who has approved this measure) can eventually help y=
ou see the positive pragmatism of the motion. We really believe this is wha=
t Lojban needs, not what selpahi deserves. The aim isn't to tell anyone in =
particular how they should use lojban, but to make lojban reflective of the=
 ideals and usage of its modern userbase.</div><div><br></div><div>If anyon=
e else has any questions, concerns, or would like to demonstrate their posi=
tive or negative disposition on this matter please feel invited to do so.&n=
bsp;</div></div>

<p></p>

-- <br />
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &=
quot;lojban&quot; group.<br />
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e=
mail to <a href=3D"mailto:lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com">lojban+unsub=
scribe@googlegroups.com</a>.<br />
To post to this group, send email to <a href=3D"mailto:lojban@googlegroups.=
com">lojban@googlegroups.com</a>.<br />
Visit this group at <a href=3D"http://groups.google.com/group/lojban">http:=
//groups.google.com/group/lojban</a>.<br />
For more options, visit <a href=3D"https://groups.google.com/d/optout">http=
s://groups.google.com/d/optout</a>.<br />

------=_Part_124_30157152.1400199346451--