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Date: Thu, 15 May 2014 19:37:27 -0600
Message-ID: <CAMKwHj2BCH7BKEEBOYeXcj=i_VYOD_YQ_ZBSV-dNYf6hLETHbw@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: Lojban's leadership and how I don't give a shit
 about it
From: Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com>
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On Thu, May 15, 2014 at 7:01 PM, Dustin Lacewell <dlacewell@gmail.com>wrote:

> Jonathan,
>
> I think you're on key, by bringing up the actual policies that currently
> exist on paper. While I'm mindfully not going to try to argue anyone here
> about what those policies say (they are available for anyone to read) I
> think even this aspect of the motion can be discussed by re-raising the
> perspective regarding Lojban's practical reality when it comes to political
> efforts, councils, procedures, hearings and so forth. Do I gain any points
> here by pointing out the incoherence between the intentions of those
> policies and their non-implementation? In the same way that we're
> nominating selpa'i to 'last-step' integration of changes to the language
> over some idealized formal direct democracy, I think we can apply similar
> admissions to the effectiveness of leaning on long standing but unrealized
> intentions.
>
> I want to also reply to your statements about finishing a baseline,
> unfreezing the language, and then the thing you said about how it wouldn't
> matter at that point how the leadership goes since the official capacities
> are 'finished' and everything becomes volunteer at that point, but I have
> to run for a while.
>

No, you misunderstand. I didn't say it won't matter once the baseline is
finished "because everything is done", I said it doesn't matter /*now*/
because it isn't. No changes are allowed as long as the freeze is in
effect, and the freeze is in effect until the baseline (, the baseline
being the language as it officially is /*now*/,) is 100% finished being
documented. As far as the volunteer thing, again, I'm referring to the /
*current*/ state, not any possible future one. As far as the official
capacities are concerned, especially RE: the BPFK, I don't think they will
ever be "finished". Lojban is not intended to be a static, unchanging
language, and the BPFK's role is to maintain and update the documentation
of the official status of the language, as in, what the words mean, how
they can or can not be used, etc. etc.


> I will say something like, we agree, and we're simply merging all of those
> exactly true facts under a more direct and achievable (by achievable I
> mean, as per the willing to do this work) means. This has not only to do
> with selpa'i gaining some say in what is committed to the language, but
> also things I have alluded to regarding putting the language in a more
> collaborative format and using patterns from software development to manage
> on going progress - the kind I imagine you envision after such 'unfreezing'.
>
> Thanks for that very good reply.
>

-- 
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On T=
hu, May 15, 2014 at 7:01 PM, Dustin Lacewell <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:dlacewell@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">dlacewell@gmail.com</a>&g=
t;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">Jonathan,<div><br></div><di=
v>I think you&#39;re on key, by bringing up the actual policies that curren=
tly exist on paper. While I&#39;m mindfully not going to try to argue anyon=
e here about what those policies say (they are available for anyone to read=
) I think even this aspect of the motion can be discussed by re-raising the=
 perspective regarding Lojban&#39;s practical reality when it comes to poli=
tical efforts, councils, procedures, hearings and so forth. Do I gain any p=
oints here by pointing out the incoherence between the intentions of those =
policies and their non-implementation? In the same way that we&#39;re nomin=
ating selpa&#39;i to &#39;last-step&#39; integration of changes to the lang=
uage over some idealized formal direct democracy, I think we can apply simi=
lar admissions to the effectiveness of leaning on long standing but unreali=
zed intentions.<br>

<br></div><div>I want to also reply to your statements about finishing a ba=
seline, unfreezing the language, and then the thing you said about how it w=
ouldn&#39;t matter at that point how the leadership goes since the official=
 capacities are &#39;finished&#39; and everything becomes volunteer at that=
 point, but I have to run for a while.</div>
</div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>No, you misunderstand. I didn&#39;t =
say it won&#39;t matter once the baseline is finished &quot;because everyth=
ing is done&quot;, I said it doesn&#39;t matter /<i>now</i>/ because it isn=
&#39;t. No changes are allowed as long as the freeze is in effect, and the =
freeze is in effect until the baseline (, the baseline being the language a=
s it officially is /<i>now</i>/,) is 100% finished being documented. As far=
 as the volunteer thing, again, I&#39;m referring to the /<i>current</i>/ s=
tate, not any possible future one. As far as the official capacities are co=
ncerned, especially RE: the BPFK, I don&#39;t think they will ever be &quot=
;finished&quot;. Lojban is not intended to be a static, unchanging language=
, and the BPFK&#39;s role is to maintain and update the documentation of th=
e official status of the language, as in, what the words mean, how they can=
 or can not be used, etc. etc.<br>
</div><div>=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0=
 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>I =
will say something like, we agree, and we&#39;re simply merging all of thos=
e exactly true facts under a more direct and achievable (by achievable I me=
an, as per the willing to do this work) means. This has not only to do with=
 selpa&#39;i gaining some say in what is committed to the language, but als=
o things I have alluded to regarding putting the language in a more collabo=
rative format and using patterns from software development to manage on goi=
ng progress - the kind I imagine you envision after such &#39;unfreezing=
9;.</div>

<div><br></div><div>Thanks for that very good reply.</div></div></blockquot=
e></div><br>-- <br>mu&#39;o mi&#39;e .aionys.<br><br>.i.e&#39;ucai ko cmima=
 lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo&#39;o<br>(Come to the Dot =
Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )<br>

</div></div>

<p></p>

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