Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of blindbravado@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:400d:c04::22f as permitted sender) client-ip=2607:f8b0:400d:c04::22f;
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <CAN2DD_HiRPqmLJivJRBS7NLa48W7WA+Qktr6Hb8X0wMmgZ73xw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAN2DD_HiRPqmLJivJRBS7NLa48W7WA+Qktr6Hb8X0wMmgZ73xw@mail.gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 16 May 2014 14:45:04 -0400
Message-ID: <CA+gZtg+MhZTuEgZJNa=CLeFO2Rd9D_45MjyS43rR8JAuqT8w0Q@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [lojban] Place structures, linkargs and a bit of FA
From: Ian Johnson <blindbravado@gmail.com>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Precedence: list
Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com
Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a1135ef48ce8e0304f988cf26
X-Spam_score: 0.0
X-Spam_score_int: 0
X-Spam_bar: /

--001a1135ef48ce8e0304f988cf26
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

http://mw.lojban.org/index.php?title=3DAdvanced_Place_Structure_Mangling

In short: the former. Note that this is not Word of BPFK, merely Word of
Tsani (with agreement from several others, myself included).

mi'e la latro'a mu'o


On Fri, May 16, 2014 at 11:54 AM, Dan Ros=C3=A9n <lurifax@gmail.com> wrote:

> Place structures, linkargs and a bit of FA
>
> Dear selmriste,
>
> It seems like it is not fully agreed upon how to figure out
> where sumti goes in all cases. Consider link-args. What is
> the place structure of the selbri {dunda be lo plise}?
> Some (including me, before I started digging into this),
> seem to think that it is:
>
>     "x1 gives an apple to x2"
>
> (example reference:
> http://mw.lojban.org/index.php?title=3DAdvanced_Place_Structure_Mangling)
>
> The CLL says: "These sumti are not part of the overall bridi place
> structure,
> but fill the places of the brivla they are attached to, starting with x2.=
"
> (http://dag.github.io/cll/5/7/), which could be interpreted as:
>
>     "x1 gives an apple to x3"
>
> Good old jbofi'e takes a middle ground. Consider the sentences
>     1) {mi do dunda be lo plise}, and
>     2) {mi fe do dunda be lo plise}.
>
> In 1), it assigns {do} in dunda2, and {lo plise} in dunda3,
> and in 2) it is the other way around.
> (https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/lojban-beginners/ho-XR6Vx2rg)
>
> An older thread from 2002 is equally confused, where the example
> sentence is {mi klama be fi le zdani le zarci}
> (https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/lojban/conversations/topics/18022)
> Here xod (I think) claims that {le zarci} is in klama4: the {fi} inside
> the linkargs affects the place structure of the outer bridi!
>
> The BPFK section does not touch this issue.
> (http://www.lojban.org/tiki/BPFK+Section:+Linkargs)
>
> What does {be} do to a selbri?
>
> ki'e mi'e .dan. mu'o
>
>  --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "lojban" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>

--=20
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "=
lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e=
mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--001a1135ef48ce8e0304f988cf26
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div><a href=3D"http://mw.lojban.org/index.php?title=3DAdv=
anced_Place_Structure_Mangling">http://mw.lojban.org/index.php?title=3DAdva=
nced_Place_Structure_Mangling</a><br><br></div>In short: the former. Note t=
hat this is not Word of BPFK, merely Word of Tsani (with agreement from sev=
eral others, myself included).<br>
<br>mi&#39;e la latro&#39;a mu&#39;o<br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><b=
r><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Fri, May 16, 2014 at 11:54 AM, Dan Ros=
=C3=A9n <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lurifax@gmail.com" target=
=3D"_blank">lurifax@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">Place structures, linkargs =
and a bit of FA<br><br>Dear selmriste,<br><br>It seems like it is not fully=
 agreed upon how to figure out <br>
where sumti goes in all cases. Consider link-args. What is<br>the place str=
ucture of the selbri {dunda be lo plise}? <br>

Some (including me, before I started digging into this), <br>seem to think =
that it is: <br><br>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;x1 gives an apple to x2&quot;<=
br><br>(example reference: <a href=3D"http://mw.lojban.org/index.php?title=
=3DAdvanced_Place_Structure_Mangling" target=3D"_blank">http://mw.lojban.or=
g/index.php?title=3DAdvanced_Place_Structure_Mangling</a>)<br>


<br>The CLL says: &quot;These sumti are not part of the overall bridi place=
 structure,<br>but fill the places of the brivla they are attached to, star=
ting with x2.&quot;<br>(<a href=3D"http://dag.github.io/cll/5/7/" target=3D=
"_blank">http://dag.github.io/cll/5/7/</a>), which could be interpreted as:=
<br>


<br>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;x1 gives an apple to x3&quot;<br><br>Good old =
jbofi&#39;e takes a middle ground. Consider the sentences <br>=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0 1) {mi do dunda be lo plise}, and <br>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 2) {mi fe d=
o dunda be lo plise}. <br><br>In 1), it assigns {do} in dunda2, and {lo pli=
se} in dunda3,<br>


and in 2) it is the other way around.<br>(<a href=3D"https://groups.google.=
com/forum/#!topic/lojban-beginners/ho-XR6Vx2rg" target=3D"_blank">https://g=
roups.google.com/forum/#!topic/lojban-beginners/ho-XR6Vx2rg</a>)<br><br>An =
older thread from 2002 is equally confused, where the example<br>


sentence is {mi klama be fi le zdani le zarci} <br>(<a href=3D"https://grou=
ps.yahoo.com/neo/groups/lojban/conversations/topics/18022" target=3D"_blank=
">https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/lojban/conversations/topics/18022</a>=
)<br>
Here xod (I think) claims that {le zarci} is in klama4: the {fi} inside<br>

the linkargs affects the place structure of the outer bridi!<br><br>The BPF=
K section does not touch this issue.<br>(<a href=3D"http://www.lojban.org/t=
iki/BPFK+Section:+Linkargs" target=3D"_blank">http://www.lojban.org/tiki/BP=
FK+Section:+Linkargs</a>)<br>


<br>What does {be} do to a selbri?<br><br>ki&#39;e mi&#39;e .dan. mu&#39;o<=
span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><br><br></font></span></div><=
span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888">

<p></p>

-- <br>
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &=
quot;lojban&quot; group.<br>
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e=
mail to <a href=3D"mailto:lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com" target=3D"_b=
lank">lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com</a>.<br>
To post to this group, send email to <a href=3D"mailto:lojban@googlegroups.=
com" target=3D"_blank">lojban@googlegroups.com</a>.<br>
Visit this group at <a href=3D"http://groups.google.com/group/lojban" targe=
t=3D"_blank">http://groups.google.com/group/lojban</a>.<br>
For more options, visit <a href=3D"https://groups.google.com/d/optout" targ=
et=3D"_blank">https://groups.google.com/d/optout</a>.<br>
</font></span></blockquote></div><br></div>

<p></p>

-- <br />
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &=
quot;lojban&quot; group.<br />
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e=
mail to <a href=3D"mailto:lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com">lojban+unsub=
scribe@googlegroups.com</a>.<br />
To post to this group, send email to <a href=3D"mailto:lojban@googlegroups.=
com">lojban@googlegroups.com</a>.<br />
Visit this group at <a href=3D"http://groups.google.com/group/lojban">http:=
//groups.google.com/group/lojban</a>.<br />
For more options, visit <a href=3D"https://groups.google.com/d/optout">http=
s://groups.google.com/d/optout</a>.<br />

--001a1135ef48ce8e0304f988cf26--