Date: Sat, 17 May 2014 00:35:54 -0700 (PDT)
From: la durka <durka42@gmail.com>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
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References: <26AH1o00w56Cr6M016AJaX>
 <53760BA6.60403@lojban.org>
Subject: Re: [lojban] the future of Lojban's leadership
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coi la lojbab io

Not a motion as in an official LLG motion, surely not. Didn't mean to imply
that, if that's the meaning you took.

I have a problem with dismissing Facebook and IRC out of hand, because=20
that's a
large portion of the Lojban-speaking community. And if nothing else, the
present "unofficial community motion" (or whatever it should be called), an=
d
the amount of support it's seen, including from some LLG members, has shown
that there is a lot of will among Lojbanists for things to move forward.

I admit to not really knowing what's been going on in the LLG recently (in=
=20
fact
I can't be the only one who wasn't even aware the meeting was going on).=20
Part
of this is the minutes not being published of course.

Anyway a few things are clear. Everyone wants a bright future for Lojban,=
=20
and
agrees that there is work to do to make the language specification adequate=
.
That is the BPFK's responsibility, but the BPFK has been stalled for a long
time (and some have pointed to the existing mechanisms, but they are
demonstrably not working). Maybe it is time to change the structure, not in
order to change the ideals, but in order to get things moving faster toward=
s
those ideals.

Some people have said, what exactly are we proposing here? It's a good
question. To put it one way, we're simply trying to coalesce around selpa'i=
=20
and
unstick the development of Lojban from the current gridlock. But that raise=
s
the question of how? Obviously, it's not completely settled. Dustin=20
mentioned
the open source software model before. So here's an outline, in broad=20
strokes,
of what could be:

- A new committee takes on the task of finishing the language documentation=
,
  and discussing + approving/rejecting (by vote or consensus) any further
  change proposals. Presumably, the active members of the BPFK would join=
=20
this
  committee.
- We put selpa'i at the head of this committee. Someone needs to have the=
=20
power
  to resolve disputes and selpa'i/Miles has the will and skill to do it=20
(oops,
  didn't mean to rhyme there). Of course, someone chosen by the community=
=20
can
  always be removed by the same community in the unlikely event that they=
=20
fail
  to do a good job.
- The language development is organized as much as possible like a software
  project. There's an issue tracker so that discussions can be had about
  multiple issues at the same time, yet in an organized fashion, and the
  important bits (definitions, grammar rules, etc) are in a repository.=20
Using
  some kind of source control (Github? eh?) will give us a lot of advantage=
s
  including easily viewable history, and ways to branch off separate work=
=20
items
  and merge them back later. (Of course we can argue about specific
  technologies and bikesheds later.)
- Everyone is encouraged to contribute to the language documentation and
  development. Contributions have to be approved by the aforementioned=20
committee.
  Membership on the committee would be decided by the committee (ultimately=
=20
by
  selpa'i, I guess) based on the strength of one's contributions and
  demonstrated skill in Lojban.

The idea is to keep bureaucracy to an absolute minimum, but to provide a
platform and organizational process that will work (better than the BPFK ha=
s
worked thus far) to move Lojban forward. Details are up for discussion, but=
=20
I
wanted to get an idea out there (an idea that I think would work really=20
well!).


So, to conclude, there seem to be plenty of people who want progress and=20
some
inertia behind it. I've presented one possible model. What's the best way t=
o
work with the LLG so that such a thing can be considered?

mi'e la durka mu'o


El viernes, 16 de mayo de 2014 08:59:18 UTC-4, lojbab escribi=C3=B3:
>
> On 5/15/2014 2:09 AM, Alex Burka wrote:=20
> > My name is Dustin and you might know me as ldlework or mokau or cadgu'a=
.=20
> >   I'm=20
> > writing to announce the current motion to nominate selpa'i as the=20
> > current warden=20
> > for the language in a provisionally official capacity contingent on the=
=20
> > general=20
> > attitudes professed by the community's response to the motion. selpa'i=
=20
> > would be=20
> > replacing Robin Lee Powell in this position.=20
>
> There is no motion, and no provision for a motion at this time.  The LLG=
=20
> annual meeting was 3 months ago.  Furthermore, neither you nor selpa'i=20
> has ever expressed any interest in being a formal/voting member of LLG,=
=20
> nor participated in an LLG meeting as a nonvoting capacity.=20
>
> Neither Facebook nor IRC are relevant to the matter, since neither is an=
=20
> official group.=20
>
> LLG is a legal entity and has to operate in a formal manner in=20
> accordance with its bylaws.=20
>
> As to the specifics, I have absolutely no reason at this time to support=
=20
> selpa'i in any formal role in managing the language.=20
>
> lojbab=20
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr">coi la lojbab io<br><br>Not a motion as in an official LLG=
 motion, surely not. Didn't mean to imply<br>that, if that's the meaning yo=
u took.<br><br>I have a problem with dismissing Facebook and IRC out of han=
d, because that's a<br>large portion of the Lojban-speaking community. And =
if nothing else, the<br>present "unofficial community motion" (or whatever =
it should be called), and<br>the amount of support it's seen, including fro=
m some LLG members, has shown<br>that there is a lot of will among Lojbanis=
ts for things to move forward.<br><br>I admit to not really knowing what's =
been going on in the LLG recently (in fact<br>I can't be the only one who w=
asn't even aware the meeting was going on). Part<br>of this is the minutes =
not being published of course.<br><br>Anyway a few things are clear. Everyo=
ne wants a bright future for Lojban, and<br>agrees that there is work to do=
 to make the language specification adequate.<br>That is the BPFK's respons=
ibility, but the BPFK has been stalled for a long<br>time (and some have po=
inted to the existing mechanisms, but they are<br>demonstrably not working)=
. Maybe it is time to change the structure, not in<br>order to change the i=
deals, but in order to get things moving faster towards<br>those ideals.<br=
><br>Some people have said, what exactly are we proposing here? It's a good=
<br>question. To put it one way, we're simply trying to coalesce around sel=
pa'i and<br>unstick the development of Lojban from the current gridlock. Bu=
t that raises<br>the question of how? Obviously, it's not completely settle=
d. Dustin mentioned<br>the open source software model before. So here's an =
outline, in broad strokes,<br>of what could be:<br><br>- A new committee ta=
kes on the task of finishing the language documentation,<br>&nbsp; and disc=
ussing + approving/rejecting (by vote or consensus) any further<br>&nbsp; c=
hange proposals. Presumably, the active members of the BPFK would join this=
<br>&nbsp; committee.<br>- We put selpa'i at the head of this committee. So=
meone needs to have the power<br>&nbsp; to resolve disputes and selpa'i/Mil=
es has the will and skill to do it (oops,<br>&nbsp; didn't mean to rhyme th=
ere). Of course, someone chosen by the community can<br>&nbsp; always be re=
moved by the same community in the unlikely event that they fail<br>&nbsp; =
to do a good job.<br>- The language development is organized as much as pos=
sible like a software<br>&nbsp; project. There's an issue tracker so that d=
iscussions can be had about<br>&nbsp; multiple issues at the same time, yet=
 in an organized fashion, and the<br>&nbsp; important bits (definitions, gr=
ammar rules, etc) are in a repository. Using<br>&nbsp; some kind of source =
control (Github? eh?) will give us a lot of advantages<br>&nbsp; including =
easily viewable history, and ways to branch off separate work items<br>&nbs=
p; and merge them back later. (Of course we can argue about specific<br>&nb=
sp; technologies and bikesheds later.)<br>- Everyone is encouraged to contr=
ibute to the language documentation and<br>&nbsp; development. Contribution=
s have to be approved by the aforementioned committee.<br>&nbsp; Membership=
 on the committee would be decided by the committee (ultimately by<br>&nbsp=
; selpa'i, I guess) based on the strength of one's contributions and<br>&nb=
sp; demonstrated skill in Lojban.<br><br>The idea is to keep bureaucracy to=
 an absolute minimum, but to provide a<br>platform and organizational proce=
ss that will work (better than the BPFK has<br>worked thus far) to move Loj=
ban forward. Details are up for discussion, but I<br>wanted to get an idea =
out there (an idea that I think would work really well!).<br><br><br>So, to=
 conclude, there seem to be plenty of people who want progress and some<br>=
inertia behind it. I've presented one possible model. What's the best way t=
o<br>work with the LLG so that such a thing can be considered?<br><br>mi'e =
la durka mu'o<br><br><br>El viernes, 16 de mayo de 2014 08:59:18 UTC-4, loj=
bab escribi=C3=B3:<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;marg=
in-left: 0.8ex;border-left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;">On 5/15/2014=
 2:09 AM, Alex Burka wrote:
<br>&gt; My name is Dustin and you might know me as ldlework or mokau or ca=
dgu'a.
<br>&gt; &nbsp; I'm
<br>&gt; writing to announce the current motion to nominate selpa'i as the
<br>&gt; current warden
<br>&gt; for the language in a provisionally official capacity contingent o=
n the
<br>&gt; general
<br>&gt; attitudes professed by the community's response to the motion. sel=
pa'i
<br>&gt; would be
<br>&gt; replacing Robin Lee Powell in this position.
<br>
<br>There is no motion, and no provision for a motion at this time. &nbsp;T=
he LLG=20
<br>annual meeting was 3 months ago. &nbsp;Furthermore, neither you nor sel=
pa'i=20
<br>has ever expressed any interest in being a formal/voting member of LLG,=
=20
<br>nor participated in an LLG meeting as a nonvoting capacity.
<br>
<br>Neither Facebook nor IRC are relevant to the matter, since neither is a=
n=20
<br>official group.
<br>
<br>LLG is a legal entity and has to operate in a formal manner in=20
<br>accordance with its bylaws.
<br>
<br>As to the specifics, I have absolutely no reason at this time to suppor=
t=20
<br>selpa'i in any formal role in managing the language.
<br>
<br>lojbab
<br></blockquote></div>

<p></p>

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