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From: kozmikreis <kozmikreis@lojban.org.uk>
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Subject: Re: [lojban] the future of Lojban's leadership
Date: Sat, 17 May 2014 09:50:42 +0100
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I'm in favour of a new process model for the formalisation of the language,=
 in particular using a Git repository hosted through Github, Bitbucket or s=
imilar, and having a hierarchical structure of contributors arranged by spe=
ciality making pull requests and merges.  Someone of selpa'i-level of langu=
age intimacy/mastery if not selpa'i himself being sat atop is fine with me =
too.  There would always need to be some kind of final arbiter at the top o=
f the merge cascade, though it could be devolved to a small BPFK-style grou=
p implementing majority voting.

kozmikreis
(Paul Swift, LLG Member)

On 17 May 2014, at 08:35, la durka wrote:

> coi la lojbab io
>=20
> Not a motion as in an official LLG motion, surely not. Didn't mean to imp=
ly
> that, if that's the meaning you took.
>=20
> I have a problem with dismissing Facebook and IRC out of hand, because th=
at's a
> large portion of the Lojban-speaking community. And if nothing else, the
> present "unofficial community motion" (or whatever it should be called), =
and
> the amount of support it's seen, including from some LLG members, has sho=
wn
> that there is a lot of will among Lojbanists for things to move forward.
>=20
> I admit to not really knowing what's been going on in the LLG recently (i=
n fact
> I can't be the only one who wasn't even aware the meeting was going on). =
Part
> of this is the minutes not being published of course.
>=20
> Anyway a few things are clear. Everyone wants a bright future for Lojban,=
 and
> agrees that there is work to do to make the language specification adequa=
te.
> That is the BPFK's responsibility, but the BPFK has been stalled for a lo=
ng
> time (and some have pointed to the existing mechanisms, but they are
> demonstrably not working). Maybe it is time to change the structure, not =
in
> order to change the ideals, but in order to get things moving faster towa=
rds
> those ideals.
>=20
> Some people have said, what exactly are we proposing here? It's a good
> question. To put it one way, we're simply trying to coalesce around selpa=
'i and
> unstick the development of Lojban from the current gridlock. But that rai=
ses
> the question of how? Obviously, it's not completely settled. Dustin menti=
oned
> the open source software model before. So here's an outline, in broad str=
okes,
> of what could be:
>=20
> - A new committee takes on the task of finishing the language documentati=
on,
>   and discussing + approving/rejecting (by vote or consensus) any further
>   change proposals. Presumably, the active members of the BPFK would join=
 this
>   committee.
> - We put selpa'i at the head of this committee. Someone needs to have the=
 power
>   to resolve disputes and selpa'i/Miles has the will and skill to do it (=
oops,
>   didn't mean to rhyme there). Of course, someone chosen by the community=
 can
>   always be removed by the same community in the unlikely event that they=
 fail
>   to do a good job.
> - The language development is organized as much as possible like a softwa=
re
>   project. There's an issue tracker so that discussions can be had about
>   multiple issues at the same time, yet in an organized fashion, and the
>   important bits (definitions, grammar rules, etc) are in a repository. U=
sing
>   some kind of source control (Github? eh?) will give us a lot of advanta=
ges
>   including easily viewable history, and ways to branch off separate work=
 items
>   and merge them back later. (Of course we can argue about specific
>   technologies and bikesheds later.)
> - Everyone is encouraged to contribute to the language documentation and
>   development. Contributions have to be approved by the aforementioned co=
mmittee.
>   Membership on the committee would be decided by the committee (ultimate=
ly by
>   selpa'i, I guess) based on the strength of one's contributions and
>   demonstrated skill in Lojban.
>=20
> The idea is to keep bureaucracy to an absolute minimum, but to provide a
> platform and organizational process that will work (better than the BPFK =
has
> worked thus far) to move Lojban forward. Details are up for discussion, b=
ut I
> wanted to get an idea out there (an idea that I think would work really w=
ell!).
>=20
>=20
> So, to conclude, there seem to be plenty of people who want progress and =
some
> inertia behind it. I've presented one possible model. What's the best way=
 to
> work with the LLG so that such a thing can be considered?
>=20
> mi'e la durka mu'o
>=20
>=20
> El viernes, 16 de mayo de 2014 08:59:18 UTC-4, lojbab escribi=F3:
> On 5/15/2014 2:09 AM, Alex Burka wrote:=20
> > My name is Dustin and you might know me as ldlework or mokau or cadgu'a=
.=20
> >   I'm=20
> > writing to announce the current motion to nominate selpa'i as the=20
> > current warden=20
> > for the language in a provisionally official capacity contingent on the=
=20
> > general=20
> > attitudes professed by the community's response to the motion. selpa'i=
=20
> > would be=20
> > replacing Robin Lee Powell in this position.=20
>=20
> There is no motion, and no provision for a motion at this time.  The LLG=
=20
> annual meeting was 3 months ago.  Furthermore, neither you nor selpa'i=20
> has ever expressed any interest in being a formal/voting member of LLG,=
=20
> nor participated in an LLG meeting as a nonvoting capacity.=20
>=20
> Neither Facebook nor IRC are relevant to the matter, since neither is an=
=20
> official group.=20
>=20
> LLG is a legal entity and has to operate in a formal manner in=20
> accordance with its bylaws.=20
>=20
> As to the specifics, I have absolutely no reason at this time to support=
=20
> selpa'i in any formal role in managing the language.=20
>=20
> lojbab=20
>=20
> --=20
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 "lojban" group.
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 email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
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<html><head></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode:=
 space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div>I'm in favour of a ne=
w process model for the formalisation of the language, in particular using =
a Git repository hosted through Github, Bitbucket or similar, and having a =
hierarchical structure of contributors arranged by speciality making pull r=
equests and merges. &nbsp;Someone of selpa'i-level of language intimacy/mas=
tery if not selpa'i himself being sat atop is fine with me too. &nbsp;There=
 would always need to be some kind of final arbiter at the top of the merge=
 cascade, though it could be devolved to a small BPFK-style group implement=
ing majority voting.</div><div><br></div><div>kozmikreis</div><div>(Paul Sw=
ift, LLG Member)</div><br><div><div>On 17 May 2014, at 08:35, la durka wrot=
e:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><=
div dir=3D"ltr">coi la lojbab io<br><br>Not a motion as in an official LLG =
motion, surely not. Didn't mean to imply<br>that, if that's the meaning you=
 took.<br><br>I have a problem with dismissing Facebook and IRC out of hand=
, because that's a<br>large portion of the Lojban-speaking community. And i=
f nothing else, the<br>present "unofficial community motion" (or whatever i=
t should be called), and<br>the amount of support it's seen, including from=
 some LLG members, has shown<br>that there is a lot of will among Lojbanist=
s for things to move forward.<br><br>I admit to not really knowing what's b=
een going on in the LLG recently (in fact<br>I can't be the only one who wa=
sn't even aware the meeting was going on). Part<br>of this is the minutes n=
ot being published of course.<br><br>Anyway a few things are clear. Everyon=
e wants a bright future for Lojban, and<br>agrees that there is work to do =
to make the language specification adequate.<br>That is the BPFK's responsi=
bility, but the BPFK has been stalled for a long<br>time (and some have poi=
nted to the existing mechanisms, but they are<br>demonstrably not working).=
 Maybe it is time to change the structure, not in<br>order to change the id=
eals, but in order to get things moving faster towards<br>those ideals.<br>=
<br>Some people have said, what exactly are we proposing here? It's a good<=
br>question. To put it one way, we're simply trying to coalesce around selp=
a'i and<br>unstick the development of Lojban from the current gridlock. But=
 that raises<br>the question of how? Obviously, it's not completely settled=
. Dustin mentioned<br>the open source software model before. So here's an o=
utline, in broad strokes,<br>of what could be:<br><br>- A new committee tak=
es on the task of finishing the language documentation,<br>&nbsp; and discu=
ssing + approving/rejecting (by vote or consensus) any further<br>&nbsp; ch=
ange proposals. Presumably, the active members of the BPFK would join this<=
br>&nbsp; committee.<br>- We put selpa'i at the head of this committee. Som=
eone needs to have the power<br>&nbsp; to resolve disputes and selpa'i/Mile=
s has the will and skill to do it (oops,<br>&nbsp; didn't mean to rhyme the=
re). Of course, someone chosen by the community can<br>&nbsp; always be rem=
oved by the same community in the unlikely event that they fail<br>&nbsp; t=
o do a good job.<br>- The language development is organized as much as poss=
ible like a software<br>&nbsp; project. There's an issue tracker so that di=
scussions can be had about<br>&nbsp; multiple issues at the same time, yet =
in an organized fashion, and the<br>&nbsp; important bits (definitions, gra=
mmar rules, etc) are in a repository. Using<br>&nbsp; some kind of source c=
ontrol (Github? eh?) will give us a lot of advantages<br>&nbsp; including e=
asily viewable history, and ways to branch off separate work items<br>&nbsp=
; and merge them back later. (Of course we can argue about specific<br>&nbs=
p; technologies and bikesheds later.)<br>- Everyone is encouraged to contri=
bute to the language documentation and<br>&nbsp; development. Contributions=
 have to be approved by the aforementioned committee.<br>&nbsp; Membership =
on the committee would be decided by the committee (ultimately by<br>&nbsp;=
 selpa'i, I guess) based on the strength of one's contributions and<br>&nbs=
p; demonstrated skill in Lojban.<br><br>The idea is to keep bureaucracy to =
an absolute minimum, but to provide a<br>platform and organizational proces=
s that will work (better than the BPFK has<br>worked thus far) to move Lojb=
an forward. Details are up for discussion, but I<br>wanted to get an idea o=
ut there (an idea that I think would work really well!).<br><br><br>So, to =
conclude, there seem to be plenty of people who want progress and some<br>i=
nertia behind it. I've presented one possible model. What's the best way to=
<br>work with the LLG so that such a thing can be considered?<br><br>mi'e l=
a durka mu'o<br><br><br>El viernes, 16 de mayo de 2014 08:59:18 UTC-4, lojb=
ab escribi=F3:<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-l=
eft: 0.8ex;border-left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;">On 5/15/2014 2:0=
9 AM, Alex Burka wrote:
<br>&gt; My name is Dustin and you might know me as ldlework or mokau or ca=
dgu'a.
<br>&gt; &nbsp; I'm
<br>&gt; writing to announce the current motion to nominate selpa'i as the
<br>&gt; current warden
<br>&gt; for the language in a provisionally official capacity contingent o=
n the
<br>&gt; general
<br>&gt; attitudes professed by the community's response to the motion. sel=
pa'i
<br>&gt; would be
<br>&gt; replacing Robin Lee Powell in this position.
<br>
<br>There is no motion, and no provision for a motion at this time. &nbsp;T=
he LLG=20
<br>annual meeting was 3 months ago. &nbsp;Furthermore, neither you nor sel=
pa'i=20
<br>has ever expressed any interest in being a formal/voting member of LLG,=
=20
<br>nor participated in an LLG meeting as a nonvoting capacity.
<br>
<br>Neither Facebook nor IRC are relevant to the matter, since neither is a=
n=20
<br>official group.
<br>
<br>LLG is a legal entity and has to operate in a formal manner in=20
<br>accordance with its bylaws.
<br>
<br>As to the specifics, I have absolutely no reason at this time to suppor=
t=20
<br>selpa'i in any formal role in managing the language.
<br>
<br>lojbab
<br></blockquote></div><div><br class=3D"webkit-block-placeholder"></div>

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</blockquote></div><br></body></html>

<p></p>

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