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Date: Sat, 17 May 2014 11:45:25 -0400
Message-ID: <CA+gZtg+fnxWa8UhFcMUB8ZZ-RqPGWqQv3ffGsG8n5i8U1VNCtw@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [lojban] "bu letteral" and "zei lujvo"
From: Ian Johnson <blindbravado@gmail.com>
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On Thu, May 15, 2014 at 5:21 PM, Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas <jjllambias@gmail.com>=
wrote:

>
>
>
> On Thu, May 15, 2014 at 3:33 PM, Ian Johnson <blindbravado@gmail.com>wrot=
e:
>
>> On Thu, May 15, 2014 at 11:58 AM, 'Wuzzy' via lojban <
>> lojban@googlegroups.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Of course, the question how to say this in Lojban came up.
>>> Xorxes suggested =E2=80=9Cbu letteral=E2=80=9D to be lojbanized as =E2=
=80=9Czo bu zei lerfu=E2=80=9D.
>>> This looks strange and unintitive to me. I am not even sure if this is
>>> grammatical and if yes, under _which_ grammar? xD PEG? YACC? Something
>>> else?
>>>
>> After the Magic Words reform, which to my understanding coincided with
>> the writing of the PEG, {zo WORD} is a single word for purposes of word
>> counting.
>>
>
> Sort of.  It's a single word for those magic words that look back (so for
> "bu", for the left side of "zei", for "si"), but it's not a single word f=
or
> magic words that look forward (you can't quote it with "zo", you can't us=
e
> it as the right side component of "zei". Magic words that look forward wi=
ll
> just see "zo" as a word, so "zo zo cmavo" is a full bridi, not a quote of
> "zo cmavo".
>
> "zo bu zei lerfu" works both for PEG and for YACC, with the caveat that
> YACC uses a pre-parsing lexing process before the actual YACC kicks in.
>
>
>
>> Word counting is relevant to {si}, {bu}, and {zei}, and I think nothing
>> else, provided we exclude experimental cmavo. This means {zo si si} is t=
he
>> empty string, {zo bu zei lerfu} is a valid lujvo, and {zo bu bu} is a va=
lid
>> lerfu.
>>
>
> Yes, "si", "bu" and "zei" need to know what counts as "previous word". bu=
t
> "zo" and "zei" need to know what counts as "next word".
>
> mu'o mi'e xorxes
>
You're right, this is a better way of thinking about it. The way I was
thinking about it is inherently left-to-right: zu'u in {zo si si}, {zo si}
becomes a single word, then {si} sees it and deletes it. zu'unai in {ko'a
zei zo}, {zo} never gets a chance to quote something to form a single word
because {zei} eats it first.

mi'e la latro'a mu'o

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On T=
hu, May 15, 2014 at 5:21 PM, Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:jjllambias@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">jjllambias@gmail.com<=
/a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_ext=
ra"><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div class=3D"">On Thu, May 15, 2014=
 at 3:33 PM, Ian Johnson <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:blindbrava=
do@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">blindbravado@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote=
:<br>

<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra">=
<div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div>On Thu, May 15, 2014 at 11:58 AM, &#39;Wuzz=
y&#39; via lojban <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lojban@googlegrou=
ps.com" target=3D"_blank">lojban@googlegroups.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>


<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Of course, the question how to say this in L=
ojban came up.<br>
Xorxes suggested =E2=80=9Cbu letteral=E2=80=9D to be lojbanized as =E2=80=
=9Czo bu zei lerfu=E2=80=9D.<br>
This looks strange and unintitive to me. I am not even sure if this is<br>
grammatical and if yes, under _which_ grammar? xD PEG? YACC? Something<br>
else?<br></blockquote></div><div>After the Magic Words reform, which to my =
understanding coincided with the writing of the PEG, {zo WORD} is a single =
word for purposes of word counting. </div></div></div></div></blockquote>

<div><br></div></div><div>Sort of. =C2=A0It&#39;s a single word for those m=
agic words that look back (so for &quot;bu&quot;, for the left side of &quo=
t;zei&quot;, for &quot;si&quot;), but it&#39;s not a single word for magic =
words that look forward (you can&#39;t quote it with &quot;zo&quot;, you ca=
n&#39;t use it as the right side component of &quot;zei&quot;. Magic words =
that look forward will just see &quot;zo&quot; as a word, so &quot;zo zo cm=
avo&quot; is a full bridi, not a quote of &quot;zo cmavo&quot;.=C2=A0</div>

<div><br></div><div>&quot;zo bu zei lerfu&quot; works both for PEG and for =
YACC, with the caveat that YACC uses a pre-parsing lexing process before th=
e actual YACC kicks in.</div><div class=3D""><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0</di=
v>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div=
>Word counting is relevant to {si}, {bu}, and {zei}, and I think nothing el=
se, provided we exclude experimental cmavo. This means {zo si si} is the em=
pty string, {zo bu zei lerfu} is a valid lujvo, and {zo bu bu} is a valid l=
erfu.</div>

</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div></div><div>Yes, &quot;si&quot=
;, &quot;bu&quot; and &quot;zei&quot; need to know what counts as &quot;pre=
vious word&quot;. but &quot;zo&quot; and &quot;zei&quot; need to know what =
counts as &quot;next word&quot;.=C2=A0</div>

<div><br></div><div>mu&#39;o mi&#39;e xorxes</div></div></div></div></block=
quote><div>You&#39;re right, this is a better way of thinking about it. The=
 way I was thinking about it is inherently left-to-right: zu&#39;u in {zo s=
i si}, {zo si} becomes a single word, then {si} sees it and deletes it. zu&=
#39;unai in {ko&#39;a zei zo}, {zo} never gets a chance to quote something =
to form a single word because {zei} eats it first.<br>
<br></div><div>mi&#39;e la latro&#39;a mu&#39;o<br></div><div>=C2=A0</div><=
/div><br></div></div>

<p></p>

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