Received: from mail-yk0-f185.google.com ([209.85.160.185]:52842) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1WnaCE-0005uM-1G for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Thu, 22 May 2014 14:06:59 -0700 Received: by mail-yk0-f185.google.com with SMTP id 142sf325791ykq.12 for ; Thu, 22 May 2014 14:06:30 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=VtGcKP8iwrRVc/C7GAAEO47fL5j+/r/J4L72CFOMH5k=; b=wKUpmv0ERIiVxOLWwauvqiuxAaaAC+f1EzQgTW47oXTSAOI6FghA0rpE6XFPbxAr60 nfuuWg3EvklNPLUsPpbxlknKyuwP1+jqIQygINy/mbeOSYnnmEldYQc9UwTTjIfrj78C CiHLWUyM5hXk9D1zBIHLpiNqAQEilXfzZKHYDduLFYMDELwpl86Ui0l3WJ7UcuupOTuu SgG7ZsQMCjENSFGRL/4/dDObAsGuw96rkBdQqbvIcqbz6tgk38s2roG0w3LZ1wNo9JKa cHTPPSNQ2j253yy2W0QN9qK3Fob7fsoiv3gRU57Wzr1yvLcg9BJUQObgcNPeIZwF6wNY BE3A== X-Received: by 10.140.93.23 with SMTP id c23mr5359qge.14.1400792790590; Thu, 22 May 2014 14:06:30 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.140.24.181 with SMTP id 50ls1400196qgr.92.gmail; Thu, 22 May 2014 14:06:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.236.207.164 with SMTP id n24mr140342yho.5.1400792790240; Thu, 22 May 2014 14:06:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vc0-x236.google.com (mail-vc0-x236.google.com [2607:f8b0:400c:c03::236]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id on5si70523vdb.0.2014.05.22.14.06.30 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Thu, 22 May 2014 14:06:30 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of adamlopresto@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:400c:c03::236 as permitted sender) client-ip=2607:f8b0:400c:c03::236; Received: by mail-vc0-f182.google.com with SMTP id la4so5200713vcb.13 for ; Thu, 22 May 2014 14:06:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.220.95.204 with SMTP id e12mr102649vcn.37.1400792790119; Thu, 22 May 2014 14:06:30 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.58.58.10 with HTTP; Thu, 22 May 2014 14:06:09 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: From: Adam Lopresto Date: Thu, 22 May 2014 16:06:09 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Balningau: The Great Update To: Lojban X-Original-Sender: adamlopresto@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of adamlopresto@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:400c:c03::236 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=adamlopresto@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11c1f3eca8bbbd04fa037c6d X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam_score: 0.0 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / --001a11c1f3eca8bbbd04fa037c6d Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 On Thu, May 22, 2014 at 3:54 PM, Craig Daniel wrote: > Question: > > Is it your intention to fork off of Lojban? If so, what do you believe > fracturing the speech community will accomplish? If not, why are you > making no apparent effort to make this any kind of official project? > We tried that; you can read the thread linked above ( https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/lojban/_juGorRhWtI) if you want the nitty gritty, but the short answer is that the LLG is committed to thoroughly documenting CLL-Lojban before any other work can be done. We feel that that that standard is out of date, and that effort toward perfecting it would be better spent advancing modern usage. > (I say this as somebody who loves the idea of a better-organized, more > internally consistent gimste and is likely to back any kind of > official proposal to sanely bring about such a thing.) > Your input would be appreciated! > > - mi'e .kreig.daniyl. > > On Thu, May 22, 2014 at 4:50 PM, Dustin Lacewell > wrote: > > This message is an announcement and an invitation. > > > > An effort will begin shortly by a number of jbopre, for which this > > announcement > > speaks, that pertains to the systematic review and, where deemed > necessary, > > revision of the entire gimste. > > > > We expect a lot of varied responses to this effort. > > > > The response we expect to receive the loudest is the one that denies the > > very > > legitimacy of the endeavor. We have considered how to approach the > community > > regarding this agenda and the conclusion was to formally approach the > > mailing-list, Facebook and IRC communities regarding the status-quo > > regarding > > the policies related to lojban's maintenance. > > > > You can view the result of this approach in this thread: > > > > https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/lojban/_juGorRhWtI > > > > We implore you to carefully review the progression of discourse and > consider > > for > > yourself what may be concluded from the positions put forth there. The > > outcome > > is not much different than what we expected when we submitted the > original > > message, at least in terms of pushback. The amount of explicit support > and > > advocacy was incredibly encouraging and reaffirming. > > > > The conclusion, as far as we are concerned, can essentially be > characterized > > as > > a mix between a simplistic resolve that "somebody 'just' needs to pick up > > where > > we left off!" and long historical digressions about why things are > > gridlocked in > > the first place. The suggestions provided for removing that gridlock have > > been, > > to be clear, deemed unreasonable and not worth their weight in practical > > value. > > > > Consider the character in proposing that those with the will to work on > the > > language > > first carry out the lengthy agendas gone unfinished for more than 10 > years, > > including puzzling suggestions to do things like finish a CLL reflective > of > > decade old Lojban, only to subsequently replace it with a modern one. > > > > Be certain that we have *heard* these outlines for how we should be > spending > > our > > efforts, considered them, and decided we have no intention of carrying > out > > such > > tautological efforts as prerequisites to our own. To speak plainly, we > > simply > > are not interested. We have far more practical things to do that are > > directly > > related to dealing with making the lojbanic prescription more immediately > > reflective of modern lojban for the benefit of its current speakers and > the > > sensibilities of those finding the language for the first time, every > day. > > > > ta'onai > > > > The first of those efforts is the aforementioned revision of the gimste. > We, > > and > > those who decide to participate, will be systematically visiting each > gismu > > in > > the gimste and applying modern sensibilities and usage to their place > > structures. This includes changing the order, removing or adding places > as > > it is > > deemed valuable and sensible to do so. We intend to use the software > model > > for > > this process, specifically for the use of change proposals, review, and > > potential integrational merging of individual changes back into the > gimste. > > > > The current repository where this work will take place can be found here: > > > > https://github.com/balningau/gimste > > > > We are currently working to organize this repository with the data of the > > gimste > > so that work can begin. We will be authoring a number of documents > outlining > > the > > procedure and process for this effort explicitly so that it can be > > referenced > > later. We will also include good information about how to interact with > > github's > > interface to participate in the effort, using easy to understand language > > and > > pictures outlining the steps to perform things like, submitting your own > > change > > proposal, and commenting on the proposal's of others. > > > > If you think you too would like to participate directly in this process > we > > HIGHLY encourage you to come visit us in the #balningau channel on > Freenode > > IRC. > > There is still some time before we actually begin as the aforementioned > > documentation needs to be authored and we need to further discuss the > > process > > and ordering of that process before anything happens. However, we are > > getting > > fairly close to feeling ready to begin so please come and join us in > direct > > discourse. > > > > We expect this thread will devolve into the philosophy about the mere > > integrity or legitimacy of the effort or specific revisions to the gismu > > that > > this person or that person agrees or disagrees with. As for the former, > > we'll be > > listening to that discussion but no longer feel strongly compelled by > it. As > > for > > the latter, we again highly encourage you to come to #balningau where > such > > specific discussions are happening all the time. Furthermore, when we > move > > to > > begin having those conversations in a more formal context on github, > > utilizing > > the issue system, you will be more contextualized when that happens. > > > > Thanks for reading this far. > > Regards, > > Dustin > > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > > "lojban" group. > > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --001a11c1f3eca8bbbd04fa037c6d Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On T= hu, May 22, 2014 at 3:54 PM, Craig Daniel <craigbdaniel@gmail.com= > wrote:
Question:

Is it your intention to fork off of Lojban? If so, what do you believe
fracturing the speech community will accomplish? If not, why are you
making no apparent effort to make this any kind of official project?

We tried that; you can read the thread linked= above (https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/lojban/_juGorRhWtI) if you wan= t the nitty gritty, but the short answer is that the LLG is committed to th= oroughly documenting CLL-Lojban before any other work can be done. We feel = that that that standard is out of date, and that effort toward perfecting i= t would be better spent advancing modern usage.
=C2=A0
(I say this as somebody who loves the ide= a of a better-organized, more
internally consistent gimste and is likely to back any kind of
official proposal to sanely bring about such a thing.)

Your input would be appreciated!
=C2=A0

=C2=A0- mi'e .kreig.daniyl.

On Thu, May 22, 2014 at 4:50 PM, Dustin Lacewell <dlacewell@gmail.com> wrote:
> This message is an announcement and an invitation.
>
> An effort will begin shortly by a number of jbopre, for which this
> announcement
> speaks, that pertains to the systematic review and, where deemed neces= sary,
> revision of the entire gimste.
>
> We expect a lot of varied responses to this effort.
>
> The response we expect to receive the loudest is the one that denies t= he
> very
> legitimacy of the endeavor. We have considered how to approach the com= munity
> regarding this agenda and the conclusion was to formally approach the<= br> > mailing-list, Facebook and IRC communities regarding the status-quo > regarding
> the policies related to lojban's maintenance.
>
> You can view the result of this approach in this thread:
>
> https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/lojban/_juGorRhW= tI
>
> We implore you to carefully review the progression of discourse and co= nsider
> for
> yourself what may be concluded from the positions put forth there. The=
> outcome
> is not much different than what we expected when we submitted the orig= inal
> message, at least in terms of pushback. The amount of explicit support= and
> advocacy was incredibly encouraging and reaffirming.
>
> The conclusion, as far as we are concerned, can essentially be charact= erized
> as
> a mix between a simplistic resolve that "somebody 'just' = needs to pick up
> where
> we left off!" and long historical digressions about why things ar= e
> gridlocked in
> the first place. The suggestions provided for removing that gridlock h= ave
> been,
> to be clear, deemed unreasonable and not worth their weight in practic= al
> value.
>
> Consider the character in proposing that those with the will to work o= n the
> language
> first carry out the lengthy agendas gone unfinished for more than 10 y= ears,
> including puzzling suggestions to do things like finish a CLL reflecti= ve of
> decade old Lojban, only to subsequently replace it with a modern one.<= br> >
> Be certain that we have *heard* these outlines for how we should be sp= ending
> our
> efforts, considered them, and decided we have no intention of carrying= out
> such
> tautological efforts as prerequisites to our own. To speak plainly, we=
> simply
> are not interested. We have far more practical things to do that are > directly
> related to dealing with making the lojbanic prescription more immediat= ely
> reflective of modern lojban for the benefit of its current speakers an= d the
> sensibilities of those finding the language for the first time, every = day.
>
> ta'onai
>
> The first of those efforts is the aforementioned revision of the gimst= e. We,
> and
> those who decide to participate, will be systematically visiting each = gismu
> in
> the gimste and applying modern sensibilities and usage to their place<= br> > structures. This includes changing the order, removing or adding place= s as
> it is
> deemed valuable and sensible to do so. We intend to use the software m= odel
> for
> this process, specifically for the use of change proposals, review, an= d
> potential integrational merging of individual changes back into the gi= mste.
>
> The current repository where this work will take place can be found he= re:
>
> http= s://github.com/balningau/gimste
>
> We are currently working to organize this repository with the data of = the
> gimste
> so that work can begin. We will be authoring a number of documents out= lining
> the
> procedure and process for this effort explicitly so that it can be
> referenced
> later. We will also include good information about how to interact wit= h
> github's
> interface to participate in the effort, using easy to understand langu= age
> and
> pictures outlining the steps to perform things like, submitting your o= wn
> change
> proposal, and commenting on the proposal's of others.
>
> If you think you too would like to participate directly in this proces= s we
> HIGHLY encourage you to come visit us in the #balningau channel on Fre= enode
> IRC.
> There is still some time before we actually begin as the aforementione= d
> documentation needs to be authored and we need to further discuss the<= br> > process
> and ordering of that process before anything happens. However, we are<= br> > getting
> fairly close to feeling ready to begin so please come and join us in d= irect
> discourse.
>
> We expect this thread will devolve into the philosophy about the mere<= br> > integrity or legitimacy of the effort or specific revisions to the gis= mu
> that
> this person or that person agrees or disagrees with. As for the former= ,
> we'll be
> listening to that discussion but no longer feel strongly compelled by = it. As
> for
> the latter, we again highly encourage you to come to #balningau where = such
> specific discussions are happening all the time. Furthermore, when we = move
> to
> begin having those conversations in a more formal context on github, > utilizing
> the issue system, you will be more contextualized when that happens. >
> Thanks for reading this far.
> Regards,
> Dustin
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Gro= ups
> "lojban" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send= an
> email to lojb= an+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+uns= ubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsub= scribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http:= //groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit http= s://groups.google.com/d/optout.
--001a11c1f3eca8bbbd04fa037c6d--