Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of craigbdaniel@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4003:c01::234 as permitted sender) client-ip=2607:f8b0:4003:c01::234;
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <537E70A1.4080707@gmx.de>
References: <b3d39fc1-7bcf-42c7-accf-5bf992ff183d@googlegroups.com>
	<CAP=UV6qxw48A4oNRqpyR1UFEnoQ6yTNdQy03E=p2is7W6wUoUw@mail.gmail.com>
	<537E70A1.4080707@gmx.de>
Date: Thu, 22 May 2014 18:05:18 -0400
Message-ID: <CAP=UV6qhGEOboqd1D8dM=7HLbsDEi3kAWAMQuZ992abNQrhXGA@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [lojban] Balningau: The Great Update
From: Craig Daniel <craigbdaniel@gmail.com>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Precedence: list
Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com
Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
X-Spam_score: 0.0
X-Spam_score_int: 0
X-Spam_bar: /

On Thu, May 22, 2014 at 5:48 PM, selpa'i <seladwa@gmx.de> wrote:
>
>> If not, why are you
>> making no apparent effort to make this any kind of official project?
>
>
> We actually did try. See this recent thread (
> https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/lojban/_juGorRhWtI ). We tried to
> appoint some sort of new leadership in order to give activities like this
> gimste revision the proper drive and momentum and the ability to make actual
> decisions.

Yes, that's a thread I saw. An attempt was made to appoint new
leadership to official status in a manner that has nothing to do with
what is currently official. Just as Josha Norton could not bootstrap
his way into any actual leadership of the United States, this was a
silly way to try to get anything done.

I see you as a leader within the Lojban community in an unofficial
way. I'm genuinely surprised you've never shown any interest in being
part of the voting membership of the organization that is tasked with
shepherding the language, especially as you have ideas about how that
mission could more effectively be accomplished.

> We certainly would like this project to be official, but the LLG clearly has
> other plans before even considering a project like this.

It does, at this time. But the LLG is a democratic organization that
has only the plans its membership decides to have at the annual
meeting, which is conducted via a parliamentary process.

> Nevertheless, I and everyone else involved in this project believe that
> improving the gimste is something that we shouldn't postpone any longer than
> necessary (Nobody knows how long we would have to wait. Another 10 years?).

Do you know how many years passed from when xorlo was proposed in a
usably-close-to-final form and when it was granted official status by
the body you are assuming can't act fast enough?

The answer is about half of one. The BPFK took a vote pretty much
immediately in which we (I say we because I was on it at the time)
unanimously said this was a thing we wanted approved and made
official, so Robin moved to do so. Objections were made that the
then-current version of the BPFK procedures didn't actually allow for
that to happen with any piece before all pieces were done (which is
because they were written at a time when it was thought the whole
project would take a year or so tops, and we were at the time already
seeing that it was going to be a long slog), so And said, let's change
the procedures so we can implement it! And so I wrote up a proposal to
do precisely that (one that said, in more formal terms, "hey, the
entire BPFK and a healthy majority of the membership wants this;
clearly when *that* is the case it is a good idea") and to incorporate
into those changes the adoption of xorlo, and this proposal passed at
once.

So, based on past experience: we'd have to wait until the work on that
bit of stuff was done and there was a proposal to vote on, and
probably also until there was a clear enough mandate from the
community for its implementation that even at least a few
mostly-hardliners like And were squarely behind it, and then a'osai it
would get approved with a promptness you may find startling.

> We don't want to wait anymore, and we hope that others share this sentiment
> and will participate in the revision either by actively getting involved or
> by voicing their approval of the idea and supporting our cause that way.

As noted a moment ago, I can't help in any active way until after
baseball season (and even then I won't dive in hard like you seem to
be; Lojban is no longer my primary hobby, but I'm glad to see serious
work with it being done by those for whom it is), but I will gladly
take the opportunity to express my support for your goals even if I'm
quite cautious about how you're trying to get them done.

 - mi'e .kreig.

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.