Date: Thu, 22 May 2014 22:42:13 -0700 (PDT)
From: la durka <durka42@gmail.com>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
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Subject: Re: [lojban] Balningau: The Great Update
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Thanks for this perspective.
=20

> So, based on past experience: we'd have to wait until the work on that=20
> bit of stuff was done and there was a proposal to vote on, and=20
> probably also until there was a clear enough mandate from the=20
> community for its implementation that even at least a few=20
> mostly-hardliners like And were squarely behind it, and then a'osai it=20
> would get approved with a promptness you may find startling.=20
>

Even more of a reason not to wait before getting started! :)

mi'e la durka mu'o

El jueves, 22 de mayo de 2014 18:05:18 UTC-4, teucer escribi=C3=B3:
>
> On Thu, May 22, 2014 at 5:48 PM, selpa'i <sel...@gmx.de <javascript:>>=20
> wrote:=20
> >=20
> >> If not, why are you=20
> >> making no apparent effort to make this any kind of official project?=
=20
> >=20
> >=20
> > We actually did try. See this recent thread (=20
> > https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/lojban/_juGorRhWtI ). We tried=
=20
> to=20
> > appoint some sort of new leadership in order to give activities like=20
> this=20
> > gimste revision the proper drive and momentum and the ability to make=
=20
> actual=20
> > decisions.=20
>
> Yes, that's a thread I saw. An attempt was made to appoint new=20
> leadership to official status in a manner that has nothing to do with=20
> what is currently official. Just as Josha Norton could not bootstrap=20
> his way into any actual leadership of the United States, this was a=20
> silly way to try to get anything done.=20
>
> I see you as a leader within the Lojban community in an unofficial=20
> way. I'm genuinely surprised you've never shown any interest in being=20
> part of the voting membership of the organization that is tasked with=20
> shepherding the language, especially as you have ideas about how that=20
> mission could more effectively be accomplished.=20
>
> > We certainly would like this project to be official, but the LLG clearl=
y=20
> has=20
> > other plans before even considering a project like this.=20
>
> It does, at this time. But the LLG is a democratic organization that=20
> has only the plans its membership decides to have at the annual=20
> meeting, which is conducted via a parliamentary process.=20
>
> > Nevertheless, I and everyone else involved in this project believe that=
=20
> > improving the gimste is something that we shouldn't postpone any longer=
=20
> than=20
> > necessary (Nobody knows how long we would have to wait. Another 10=20
> years?).=20
>
> Do you know how many years passed from when xorlo was proposed in a=20
> usably-close-to-final form and when it was granted official status by=20
> the body you are assuming can't act fast enough?=20
>
> The answer is about half of one. The BPFK took a vote pretty much=20
> immediately in which we (I say we because I was on it at the time)=20
> unanimously said this was a thing we wanted approved and made=20
> official, so Robin moved to do so. Objections were made that the=20
> then-current version of the BPFK procedures didn't actually allow for=20
> that to happen with any piece before all pieces were done (which is=20
> because they were written at a time when it was thought the whole=20
> project would take a year or so tops, and we were at the time already=20
> seeing that it was going to be a long slog), so And said, let's change=20
> the procedures so we can implement it! And so I wrote up a proposal to=20
> do precisely that (one that said, in more formal terms, "hey, the=20
> entire BPFK and a healthy majority of the membership wants this;=20
> clearly when *that* is the case it is a good idea") and to incorporate=20
> into those changes the adoption of xorlo, and this proposal passed at=20
> once.=20
>
> So, based on past experience: we'd have to wait until the work on that=20
> bit of stuff was done and there was a proposal to vote on, and=20
> probably also until there was a clear enough mandate from the=20
> community for its implementation that even at least a few=20
> mostly-hardliners like And were squarely behind it, and then a'osai it=20
> would get approved with a promptness you may find startling.=20
>
> > We don't want to wait anymore, and we hope that others share this=20
> sentiment=20
> > and will participate in the revision either by actively getting involve=
d=20
> or=20
> > by voicing their approval of the idea and supporting our cause that way=
.=20
>
> As noted a moment ago, I can't help in any active way until after=20
> baseball season (and even then I won't dive in hard like you seem to=20
> be; Lojban is no longer my primary hobby, but I'm glad to see serious=20
> work with it being done by those for whom it is), but I will gladly=20
> take the opportunity to express my support for your goals even if I'm=20
> quite cautious about how you're trying to get them done.=20
>
>  - mi'e .kreig.=20
>

--=20
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Thanks for this perspective.<br>&nbsp;</div><blockquo=
te style=3D"margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204,=
 204); padding-left: 1ex;" class=3D"gmail_quote">So, based on past experien=
ce: we'd have to wait until the work on that
<br>bit of stuff was done and there was a proposal to vote on, and
<br>probably also until there was a clear enough mandate from the
<br>community for its implementation that even at least a few
<br>mostly-hardliners like And were squarely behind it, and then a'osai it
<br>would get approved with a promptness you may find startling.
<br></blockquote>
<br>Even more of a reason not to wait before getting started! :)<br><br>mi'=
e la durka mu'o<br><br>El jueves, 22 de mayo de 2014 18:05:18 UTC-4, teucer=
 escribi=C3=B3:<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-=
left: 0.8ex;border-left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;">On Thu, May 22,=
 2014 at 5:48 PM, selpa'i &lt;<a href=3D"javascript:" target=3D"_blank" gdf=
-obfuscated-mailto=3D"10hQlFoqdNoJ" onmousedown=3D"this.href=3D'javascript:=
';return true;" onclick=3D"this.href=3D'javascript:';return true;">sel...@g=
mx.de</a>&gt; wrote:
<br>&gt;
<br>&gt;&gt; If not, why are you
<br>&gt;&gt; making no apparent effort to make this any kind of official pr=
oject?
<br>&gt;
<br>&gt;
<br>&gt; We actually did try. See this recent thread (
<br>&gt; <a href=3D"https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/lojban/_juGorRh=
WtI" target=3D"_blank" onmousedown=3D"this.href=3D'https://groups.google.co=
m/forum/#!topic/lojban/_juGorRhWtI';return true;" onclick=3D"this.href=3D'h=
ttps://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/lojban/_juGorRhWtI';return true;">ht=
tps://groups.google.com/<wbr>forum/#!topic/lojban/_<wbr>juGorRhWtI</a> ). W=
e tried to
<br>&gt; appoint some sort of new leadership in order to give activities li=
ke this
<br>&gt; gimste revision the proper drive and momentum and the ability to m=
ake actual
<br>&gt; decisions.
<br>
<br>Yes, that's a thread I saw. An attempt was made to appoint new
<br>leadership to official status in a manner that has nothing to do with
<br>what is currently official. Just as Josha Norton could not bootstrap
<br>his way into any actual leadership of the United States, this was a
<br>silly way to try to get anything done.
<br>
<br>I see you as a leader within the Lojban community in an unofficial
<br>way. I'm genuinely surprised you've never shown any interest in being
<br>part of the voting membership of the organization that is tasked with
<br>shepherding the language, especially as you have ideas about how that
<br>mission could more effectively be accomplished.
<br>
<br>&gt; We certainly would like this project to be official, but the LLG c=
learly has
<br>&gt; other plans before even considering a project like this.
<br>
<br>It does, at this time. But the LLG is a democratic organization that
<br>has only the plans its membership decides to have at the annual
<br>meeting, which is conducted via a parliamentary process.
<br>
<br>&gt; Nevertheless, I and everyone else involved in this project believe=
 that
<br>&gt; improving the gimste is something that we shouldn't postpone any l=
onger than
<br>&gt; necessary (Nobody knows how long we would have to wait. Another 10=
 years?).
<br>
<br>Do you know how many years passed from when xorlo was proposed in a
<br>usably-close-to-final form and when it was granted official status by
<br>the body you are assuming can't act fast enough?
<br>
<br>The answer is about half of one. The BPFK took a vote pretty much
<br>immediately in which we (I say we because I was on it at the time)
<br>unanimously said this was a thing we wanted approved and made
<br>official, so Robin moved to do so. Objections were made that the
<br>then-current version of the BPFK procedures didn't actually allow for
<br>that to happen with any piece before all pieces were done (which is
<br>because they were written at a time when it was thought the whole
<br>project would take a year or so tops, and we were at the time already
<br>seeing that it was going to be a long slog), so And said, let's change
<br>the procedures so we can implement it! And so I wrote up a proposal to
<br>do precisely that (one that said, in more formal terms, "hey, the
<br>entire BPFK and a healthy majority of the membership wants this;
<br>clearly when *that* is the case it is a good idea") and to incorporate
<br>into those changes the adoption of xorlo, and this proposal passed at
<br>once.
<br>
<br>So, based on past experience: we'd have to wait until the work on that
<br>bit of stuff was done and there was a proposal to vote on, and
<br>probably also until there was a clear enough mandate from the
<br>community for its implementation that even at least a few
<br>mostly-hardliners like And were squarely behind it, and then a'osai it
<br>would get approved with a promptness you may find startling.
<br>
<br>&gt; We don't want to wait anymore, and we hope that others share this =
sentiment
<br>&gt; and will participate in the revision either by actively getting in=
volved or
<br>&gt; by voicing their approval of the idea and supporting our cause tha=
t way.
<br>
<br>As noted a moment ago, I can't help in any active way until after
<br>baseball season (and even then I won't dive in hard like you seem to
<br>be; Lojban is no longer my primary hobby, but I'm glad to see serious
<br>work with it being done by those for whom it is), but I will gladly
<br>take the opportunity to express my support for your goals even if I'm
<br>quite cautious about how you're trying to get them done.
<br>
<br>&nbsp;- mi'e .kreig.
<br></blockquote></div>

<p></p>

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