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[216.109.114.113]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id k3si911743qcn.2.2014.05.24.09.13.31 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Sat, 24 May 2014 09:13:32 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 216.109.114.113 as permitted sender) client-ip=216.109.114.113; Received: from [66.196.81.158] by nm4.access.bullet.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 24 May 2014 16:13:31 -0000 Received: from [66.196.81.146] by tm4.access.bullet.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 24 May 2014 16:13:31 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1022.access.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 24 May 2014 16:13:31 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 642235.23281.bm@omp1022.access.mail.bf1.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 18882 invoked by uid 60001); 24 May 2014 16:13:31 -0000 X-YMail-OSG: jZavH0oVM1lL6ZwLrx4H94TRN36cKEZy7mEeclb.horA96o j_8_WgGS58lCZdLXwn.LFjCuAZP3tqr1OUCBVaa1sdhHnaoNG1REJgYFrI8l 4q47XU8m2C3xVyGN9IrsA2hwf.pfNIEiVT001QiTDS9qKcHpc4rOQyft6_OE Vd_v2vC6lJ9vjohvhfS014wVnii.VulvXxbyC3w4pahhFvkiS4liMViwWoWd Xqr5KGOxQ0orgJLp5vpcu9lq4hRw_voawU_SWN4d1w4ei.OVsRt7lUHN7SJB Z7Dxc_rWXhxiNc7CceyeGCCsP_WTYNCqeZoO3tMJGQ1uOrCIczwAQDqgBwqE fp93eGDpcRpvzR739p55bZi3796g8cSRqa.4u11q.GfmKA0ArC4smaIf25.f vAPb41A1UeCM1CaBoX3qiDyO_1GzUhQwcNRrueY4RqKN4gu7Z96SlBCP6KC_ FLRaJ8JAVzIUk7zu0wc5iPQp8PxjzEUIKqQ.8UFIuZ0bvUiASOYXjxTT70lg 903kxXef6peEkYCGnNF0J4EFT1WKMkGnQnWcy3Qr2MbevszRm0H2aSBZQItD kV_vSgYRaInR4p0SgUFPkWUWfbJ6Mus44_KjwKWfk7Yxj7PNYjvbioseEJs3 .hu0_y.6EIyYtVtHt6H2u74k65EUsYWJkzeWDZVQ78VweiCX6IoHpdG2WwqM YMP52jK6DDSR9U82W0KKaL.Ibhkg_HQaHO5FgAtuOx0JxNp.DG544mdFDiy2 IGBrYhMPqesGBeg_4tE6EejiiwzWfnsT0m0iPZRhEjGL0wGDIh9spIhvLQz1 im2AVXbp34jir2LJ5BwUhmrJahJ1YcLLUEdVRNQOOI_x72nQEi824a7T4Iyt cUi65KgrN8RLaF0wOw9A_22FJnCkn3qukTPHf66OYJMZe3wo0j5eGbOHeCcD L Received: from [99.92.109.82] by web181103.mail.ne1.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sat, 24 May 2014 09:13:30 PDT X-Rocket-MIMEInfo: 002.001,SSBoYXZlbid0IHNsb2dnZWQgdGhyb3VnaCB0aGUgbGF0ZXN0IHB1Ymxpc2hlZCB0YWtlIG9uIHhvcmxvIHlldCwgYnV0IGhhdmUgc2V2ZXJhbCBxdWVzdGlvbnMvb2JqZWN0aW9ucyB0byB3aGF0IEkgY3VycmVudGx5IHRha2UgdG8gdGhlIG9mZmljaWFsIGxpbmUuIEkgZG8gdGhpbmsgdGhhdCwgYXQgaGVhcnQsIGl0IGlzIHRoZSByaWdodCB3YXkgdG8gZ28sIGJ1dCBpdCBoYXMgaW5oZXJpdGVkIG9yIGFjY3JldGVkIGEgbnVtYmVyIG9mIGRvY3RyaW5lcyB0aGF0IHJlbmRlciBpdCBsZXNzIHVzZWZ1bCAoYW4BMAEBAQE- X-Mailer: YahooMailWebService/0.8.188.663 References: <53800942.9030407@lojban.org> Message-ID: <1400948010.93944.YahooMailNeo@web181103.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 24 May 2014 09:13:30 -0700 (PDT) From: "'John E Clifford' via lojban" Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] Balningau: The Great Update To: "lojban@googlegroups.com" In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 216.109.114.113 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass header.i=@yahoo.com; dmarc=pass (p=REJECT dis=NONE) header.from=yahoo.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Original-From: John E Clifford Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="-204173969-366581157-1400948010=:93944" X-Spam-Score: -0.1 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.1 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / ---204173969-366581157-1400948010=:93944 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I haven't slogged through the latest published take on xorlo yet, but have = several questions/objections to what I currently take to the official line.= I do think that, at heart, it is the right way to go, but it has inherited= or accreted a number of doctrines that render it less useful (an absolute = notion of individuals for one). =A0What are your lines of dissatisfaction? On Saturday, May 24, 2014 3:16 AM, Gleki Arxokuna wrote: =20 2014-05-24 6:51 GMT+04:00 Robert LeChevalier : On 5/22/2014 4:50 PM, Dustin Lacewell wrote: > >You can view the result of this approach in this thread: >> >>https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/lojban/_juGorRhWtI >> >> >>We implore you to carefully review the progression of discourse and >>consider for >>yourself what may be concluded from the positions put forth there. The >>outcome >>is not much different than what we expected when we submitted the origina= l >>message, at least in terms of pushback. The amount of explicit support an= d >>advocacy was incredibly encouraging and reaffirming. >> >You seem to have rather low standard for "encouraging and reaffirming". > >The Lojban community numbers in the several hundreds if not thousands. > >Maybe 1000 copies of CLL have been sold. =A0People who bought it expect th= at the language will not lightly be changed under them. > >You and your few others (relative to that 1000) of course do not respect t= hat, which is your choice. > This certainly shows disrespect for CLL. But what's really interesting is h= ow did xorlo proposals pass then? Was it a lost battle to you? xorlo invalidates large portions of CLL thus suggesting that those 1000 cop= ies of CLL are to be burned. Do you have a solution to this problem? Because I feel that xorlo was de fa= cto a mistake (at least partially). Shall we adapt xorlo to what is described in CLL? =A0 >My position requires me to oppose yours, and to consider your efforts schi= smatic. > They would certainly be schismatic if they invalidate many things described= in CLL. However, for now we don't know what they are suggesting since their work ha= sn't even started. I revised gimste myself injecting gua\spi style specifications of sumti int= eractions and found very few problems in gimste. So I can't even imagine wh= at they are suggesting. Probably they don't know themselves. Anyway, how can it be schismatic if the only reliable source for a dictiona= ry are definitions that we can learn from CLL? Is there another official source apart from CLL? If yes then why wasn't it = printed? >----- > >For the other query in this thread: =A0perhaps LLG is unnecessary as an or= ganization, but if Lojban is ever to become something other than a word-of-= mouth hobby, it needs an business organization in any relevant political en= tity capable of dealing with laws, and finance, and business matters. =A0LL= G is a nonprofit that can accept financial contributions (in the USA) that = are tax-deductible. =A0That is why we had the money to publish CLL in the f= irst place. =A0And why we can eventually hope to publish a dictionary and o= ther books, and sell them internationally. > >Esperanto and all other significant language projects have one or more org= anizations in several countries. > >Of course maybe you and your friends are happy with Internet-only material= s. =A0I'm an old fossil by your standards. =A0And perhaps when I no longer = have the capability of participating, others will decide to fold LLG. > > >lojbab > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >--=20 >You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups = "lojban" group. >To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an = email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. ---204173969-366581157-1400948010=:93944 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I haven't slogged through the latest published tak= e on xorlo yet, but have several questions/objections to what I currently t= ake to the official line. I do think that, at heart, it is the right way to= go, but it has inherited or accreted a number of doctrines that render it = less useful (an absolute notion of individuals for one).  What are you= r lines of dissatisfaction?



= On Saturday, May 24, 2014 3:16 AM, Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.= com> wrote:


=



2014-05-24 6:51 GMT+04:00 Robert LeCheva= lier <lojbab@lojban.org>:
O= n 5/22/2014 4:50 PM, Dustin Lacewell wrote:
You can view the result of this approach in this thread:

https://groups.google.com/= forum/#!topic/lojban/_juGorRhWtI

We implore you to carefully review the progression of discourse and
consider for
yourself what may be concluded from the positions put forth there. The
outcome
is not much different than what we expected when we submitted the original<= br clear=3D"none"> message, at least in terms of pushback. The amount of explicit support and<= br clear=3D"none"> advocacy was incredibly encouraging and reaffirming.

You seem to have rather low standard for "encouraging and reaffirming".

The Lojban community numbers in the several hundreds if not thousands.

Maybe 1000 copies of CLL have been sold.  People who bought it expect = that the language will not lightly be changed under them.

You and your few others (relative to that 1000) of course do not respect th= at, which is your choice.

This certainly shows disrespect for CLL. But what's really= interesting is how did xorlo proposals pass then? Was it a lost battle to = you?

xorlo invalidates large portions of CLL = thus suggesting that those 1000 copies of CLL are to be burned.
<= br clear=3D"none">
Do you have a solution to this problem? Becaus= e I feel that xorlo was de facto a mistake (at least partially).

Shall we adapt xorlo to what is describe= d in CLL?
 

=

My position requires me to oppose yours, and to consider your efforts schis= matic.

Th= ey would certainly be schismatic if they invalidate many things described i= n CLL.

However, for now we don't know what they are suggesting since their wo= rk hasn't even started.

I revised g= imste myself injecting gua\spi style specifications of sumti interactions a= nd found very few problems in gimste. So I can't even imagine what they are= suggesting. Probably they don't know themselves.

Anyway, how can it be schismatic if the = only reliable source for a dictionary are definitions that we can learn fro= m CLL?
Is there another official source apart from CLL? If yes th= en why wasn't it printed?


-----

For the other query in this thread:  perhaps LLG is unnecessary as an = organization, but if Lojban is ever to become something other than a word-o= f-mouth hobby, it needs an business organization in any relevant political = entity capable of dealing with laws, and finance, and business matters. &nb= sp;LLG is a nonprofit that can accept financial contributions (in the USA) = that are tax-deductible.  That is why we had the money to publish CLL = in the first place.  And why we can eventually hope to publish a dicti= onary and other books, and sell them internationally.

Esperanto and all other significant language projects have one or more orga= nizations in several countries.

Of course maybe you and your friends are happy with Internet-only materials= .  I'm an old fossil by your standards.  And perhaps when I no lo= nger have the capability of participating, others will decide to fold LLG.<= div class=3D"yiv3632266300HOEnZb">


lojbab












































--
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To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/<= u>optout.


--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group.
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To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group= /lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/o= ptout.


--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsub= scribe@googlegroups.com.
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