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[216.109.115.137]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id x2si915004qch.0.2014.05.24.09.23.15 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Sat, 24 May 2014 09:23:15 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 216.109.115.137 as permitted sender) client-ip=216.109.115.137; Received: from [66.196.81.155] by nm21.access.bullet.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 24 May 2014 16:23:15 -0000 Received: from [66.196.81.140] by tm1.access.bullet.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 24 May 2014 16:23:15 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1016.access.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 24 May 2014 16:23:15 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 121976.86096.bm@omp1016.access.mail.bf1.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 69928 invoked by uid 60001); 24 May 2014 16:23:14 -0000 X-YMail-OSG: l7T6dxwVM1nDEBZ1QLvQp5nkKgIoRpi02CEpabReF5Tw5WA Q2ZkGqerPF9ts9MO5CcsST5e6.AbIfrYVX4PtcWrxDj4mf8roZQmAHYftClh 1lylWI2Ka0tmDShuKIW387j5_eH7UAe2kPIWTis9ymTmqijFES.TpNJA4LHW yTmJScr1z0QAvm0qRmlFp4W1IM7TjRDmU40JLalKGDV_gjue8IuTgYrezW4Y ELrtwwth37RHqb83YGYRqr51Y.zl9_rBY1QQpv1_lpqUZSN74y.CQEPtjXs7 fEgZmvnBYVW84yG1s54krZhIIG9EtbWPeVgv5QImIX9N0MZA74QmOieIYfaX kH1KJKyPpgf0if0Lbe.1BlrtcDGpo5j_RXKUkXPqBTxKn6.VXgz.kWhbPJhg 6EsCbktvkuNLQ2sxlwYQuF6WMn0I6hUY.ddj4rQKkMxNclOzUhFVs_0qETjj EM7OtM1PlmuFx8BxXukX5d_EYq9pmxkt1HzLBtlfDipMcbrA0C0ZQ3D8hZiM ZgMmTBHw2K6I6A5gHiK9xb5pcG5j.EE1tfC8KJuWOjtSR3UcQCjgTODlowSJ P3oqdNoxuPuulsVtmVRhzUh3JDtORAc.WHEJ8lq6jD6Q8E.WKlo34P95xrII WRB_czco_t76Aaf8GqGB_8FiaLY50YJBW7RkjtY8_mSIHmsejCn3TAdAKynL rBR9Rxi.Yn_reC.UfZIVBBWIibSi09XFKDuE_5PZunDEB.SVoiWSlkg8RkCY KP5wX3DrjhSewdmkf0A3VMOUES8Z26PPxPOohd1sF2C8OPYIFY7k2Utc.Ddt 7j4vefKARfZhHcEUtJ1iRm7L7jg-- Received: from [99.92.109.82] by web181102.mail.ne1.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sat, 24 May 2014 09:23:14 PDT X-Rocket-MIMEInfo: 002.001,V2hpbGUgaXQgaXMgaW1wb3J0YW50IHRvIHBvaW50IG91dCB0aGUgd29yZC9vYmplY3QgZGlzdGluY3Rpb24sIGl0IGlzIHByb2JhYmx5IGEgbG9zdCBjYXVzZSBpbiBMb2piYW4gKGFzIGl0IGlzIGluIEVuZ2xpc2ggYW5kIGxvZ2ljIHRleHRib29rcykuIMKgRXZlcnkgdGltZSBhbnkgc3lzdGVtYXRpYyBhdHRlbXB0IGlzIG1hZGUgdG8gZml4IHRoaXMgZGlzdGluY3Rpb24sIHRoZSBuZXcgZXhwcmVzc2lvbnMgYXJlIGNvbGxhcHNlZCB0b2dldGhlciBhZ2FpbjogdGVybSwgcHJlZGljYXRlLCBmdW5jdGlvbiwBMAEBAQE- X-Mailer: YahooMailWebService/0.8.188.663 References: <52F26B9E.2090001@gmx.de> <5e023b9a-515c-432b-a389-8f9af4766b51@googlegroups.com> <52F29ED8.1050607@gmx.de> <372dd8f1-1920-4afa-8d11-aa55696982a0@googlegroups.com> <03555bbd-cc44-426f-94ee-65d557f2d301@googlegroups.com> <592497c0-5db5-420e-867f-8df1663eca27@googlegroups.com> <52F65A5C.90605@gmx.de> <348c23bf-6d9f-4a05-bfe7-69b141c03cb7@googlegroups.com> <52F776EE.6070406@gmx.de> <6ffd64d2-2e2c-4b83-8722-b7f262f5837a@googlegroups.com> <52F7A4D5.5070106@gmx.de> <56096dec-1969-420d-b4e5-b8539cbe0cc0@googlegroups.com> <52F8FAA2.9030009@gmx.de> <52FE053C.3000604@gmx.de> <1e6d5917-ad1e-4c5b-abb7-5deb92110b83@googlegroups.com> <68bacba4-a957-481c-ba00-211db2de8dc3@googlegroups.com> <2f4f0766-1f52-46f0-80af-b4de86d9b5bd@googlegroups.com> <618e6524-d7f0-46c9-8d0b-bbee2dd0cd41@googlegroups.com> <36c4c2b2-8f8c-4d44-ac8e-48c02d45a233@googlegroups.com> <4b6b2cb9-51e5-47f6-97a9-2dec16406864@googlegroups.com> <390f1b9f-6edd-42f2-8474-ad1f3610cca3@googlegroups.com> <750f9b01-a747-4b12-80ba-e31b7e7bd20e@googlegroups.com> <570dae9f-cda3-42c4-a861-1c7974fe5bfd@googlegroups.com> Message-ID: <1400948594.69568.YahooMailNeo@web181102.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 24 May 2014 09:23:14 -0700 (PDT) From: "'John E Clifford' via lojban" Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] Individuals and xorlo To: "lojban@googlegroups.com" In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 216.109.115.137 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass header.i=@yahoo.com; dmarc=pass (p=REJECT dis=NONE) header.from=yahoo.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Original-From: John E Clifford Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="431184223-837907739-1400948594=:69568" X-Spam-Score: -0.1 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.1 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / --431184223-837907739-1400948594=:69568 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable While it is important to point out the word/object distinction, it is proba= bly a lost cause in Lojban (as it is in English and logic textbooks). =A0Ev= ery time any systematic attempt is made to fix this distinction, the new ex= pressions are collapsed together again: term, predicate, function,. argumen= t, and so on. =A0One is tempted (for more reasons than just this) to go bac= k to "noun" and "verb" for the words. On Friday, May 23, 2014 7:45 PM, Jorge Llamb=EDas wr= ote: =20 On Mon, May 19, 2014 at 10:04 AM, guskant wrote: > >I have finished English translation of my=A0commentary on gadri from a log= ical point of view: >http://www.lojban.org/tiki/gadri%3A+an+unofficial+commentary+from+a+logica= l+point+of+view&no_bl=3Dy Very nice. Here are some comments from me: (1)<< argument (sumti) Symbol that refers to a referent, or that another argument can be substitut= ed for. >> Your definition of "sumti" implies that "zi'o" is not a sumti. This is fine= , but perhaps it's worth pointing out in a note this odd word, which is als= o called a "sumti" in a wider, merely syntactic sense, =A0Also things like = "no da", "ci lo gerku", "mi .e do" and so on are called "sumti" in our form= al grammars, although they only contain sumti by the semantic definition. T= wo other words that deserve special mention in this context are "ko" and "m= a", which can arguably be said to fall under your definition, although they= also are illocutionary force indicating devices, which ordinary sumti are = not.=A0 (2)<< When each of X and Y is an individual, {X jo'u Y} is called=A0individuals.= =A0 >> I think you need to add "and X is not equal to Y" if you want to be more st= rict. =A0 (3)<< A plural constant that is an individual is called=A0singular constant. >> I'd rephrase that as: "A plural constant that refers to a single individual= is called a singular constant". I think it's worth keeping the distinction= between the words or symbols, (constants and variables) and the referents = of those symbols (things, people, trees, mountains, numbers, and so on). A = constant can be singular or plural, and it can refer to an individual, but = the constant is not the individual. The individual is the person, the tree = or the house that the constant refers to. So if "X" is a singular constant,= then X is an indifidual.=A0 (4)<< No matter whether each of X and Y is plural or singular, {X jo'u Y} is not = a singular constant.=A0 >> Unless X=3DY and X is an individual. But linguistically that would be odd i= ndeed. "jo'u" should not be generally used to join something with itself, a= lthough theoretically it can be. (5)<< ro da =A0=A0 ro'oi da poi ro'oi de poi ke'a xi pa me ke'a xi re zo'u ke'a x= i re me de su'o da =A0=A0 su'oi da poi ro'oi de poi ke'a xi pa me ke'a xi re zo'u ke'a= xi re me de >> When "poi" is used to restrict the domain for da/de/di, it is not necessary= to use "ke'a", and indeed it's more clear to not use "ke'a". "ke'a" is nee= ded when there is no explicit variable bound by the quantifier, but here yo= ur definitions are much more clear as: ro da =A0=A0 ro'oi da poi ro'oi de poi de me da zo'u da me de su'o da =A0=A0 su'oi da poi ro'oi de poi de me da zo'u da me de (6)<< For example, a plural constant {A jo'u B} can be in a domain of a bound plu= ral variable, but it cannot be in a domain of a bound singular variable bec= ause it is not an individual. >> Constants are not in the domain of variables, it's their referents that are= in the domain. And plural and singular quantifiers can share the same doma= in. I think what you want to say is that a variable bound by a singular qua= ntifier cannot take more than one individual value at a time. (7)<< lo=A0(LE) It is prefixed to selbri, and forms a plural constant that refers to what s= atisfies x1, the first place of the selbri. If a quantifier follows {lo}, t= he quantifier represents the sum of all the referents of the plural constan= t. In the case that a quantifier follows {lo}, a sumti may follow it, and t= he quantifier represents the sum of all the referents of the sumti. >> I think "number", "count" or "quantity" would be better than "sum" there. T= o take an extreme example: "lo ci namcu" has three referents, three numbers= . But "ci" is not (necessarily) the sum of the three numbers. The three num= bers could be 1, 2 and 3. Their sum is 6, while their number is 3. That nitpick aside, the second part is at least unclear. In "lo ci ko'a", "= ci" is the number of referents of "lo ci ko'a", but "ko'a" could have more = than three referents. If you want to express that three is the number of re= ferents of the inner sumti as well you need "lo ro ci ko'a". "lo ci lo mu g= erku" has three referents, but the inner sumti has five. =A0(8)<< An empty set is {lo selcmi be no da}, and an expression {lo no broda} is of= ficially meaningless (see=A0Section 3.1. This implies that an empty set can= not be expressed with {lo'i/le'i/la'i}. >> Arguably, lots of things can be described as "lo selcmi be no da", not just= the empty set. =A0A spoon, for example, or anything else that is not a set= , will satisfy "ke'a selcmi no da". "lo selcmi be no da" works well as a de= scription of the empty set in a universe of discourse in which there are on= ly sets. (But then that is really the only universe of discourse in which o= ne should mention sets at all, in my opinion.) There's another problem with the "lo'i" definition. Can "lo selcmi be lo br= oda" be any set that has lo broda among its members, or is it the one and o= nly set that has lo broda as its sole members? "cmima" only says that x1 is= /are among the members of x2, does "selcmi" say that its x2 are all the mem= bers of its x1? Open question. mu'o mi'e xorxes --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --431184223-837907739-1400948594=:69568 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
While it is important to point out the word/object= distinction, it is probably a lost cause in Lojban (as it is in English an= d logic textbooks).  Every time any systematic attempt is made to fix = this distinction, the new expressions are collapsed together again: term, p= redicate, function,. argument, and so on.  One is tempted (for more re= asons than just this) to go back to "noun" and "verb" for the words.


On Friday, May 23, 2014 7:45 PM, Jorge Ll= amb=EDas <jjllambias@gmail.com> wrote:


<= div class=3D"y_msg_container">

On Mon, May 19, 2014 at 10:04 AM, guskant <gu= sni.kantu@gmail.com> wrote:

I have finished English translat= ion of my commentary on gadri from a logical point of view:

Very nice. Here are s= ome comments from me:


(1)<<
argument (sumti)
Symbol tha= t refers to a referent, or that another argument can be substituted for.
>>

Your def= inition of "sumti" implies that "zi'o" is not a sumti. This is fine, but pe= rhaps it's worth pointing out in a note this odd word, which is also called= a "sumti" in a wider, merely syntactic sense,  Also things like "no d= a", "ci lo gerku", "mi .e do" and so on are called "sumti" in our formal gr= ammars, although they only contain sumti by the semantic definition. Two ot= her words that deserve special mention in this context are "ko" and "ma", w= hich can arguably be said to fall under your definition, although they also= are illocutionary force indicating devices, which ordinary sumti are not.&= nbsp;

(2)<<
When each of X and Y is an individual, {X jo'u Y} is c= alled individuals= . 
>>

I think you nee= d to add "and X is not equal to Y" if you want to be more strict.
 
(3)<<<= /div>
A plural constant that is an in= dividual is called singular constant.
>>
I'd rephrase that as: "A plural constant that refers t= o a single individual is called a singular constant". I think it's worth ke= eping the distinction between the words or symbols, (constants and variable= s) and the referents of those symbols (things, people, trees, mountains, nu= mbers, and so on). A constant can be singular or plural, and it can refer t= o an individual, but the constant is not the individual. The individual is = the person, the tree or the house that the constant refers to. So if "X" is= a singular constant, then X is an indifidual. 
(4)<<
No matter whether each of X and Y is plural or singular, = {X jo'u Y} is not a singular constant. 
>>
Unless X=3DY and X is an individual. But linguistically that= would be odd indeed. "jo'u" should not be generally used to join something= with itself, although theoretically it can be.

(5)<<
ro da    ro'oi da poi ro'oi de poi ke'a xi pa me ke'a xi re zo'u = ke'a xi re me de
su'o da  &= nbsp; su'oi da poi ro'oi de poi ke'a xi pa me ke'a xi re zo'u ke'a xi re me= de
>>

When "poi" is u= sed to restrict the domain for da/de/di, it is not necessary to use "ke'a",= and indeed it's more clear to not use "ke'a". "ke'a" is needed when there = is no explicit variable bound by the quantifier, but here your definitions = are much more clear as:

ro da    ro'oi da poi ro'oi de= poi de me da zo'u da me de

su'o da=    su'oi da poi ro'oi de poi de me da zo'u da me de

(6)<<
For example, a plural constant = {A jo'u B} can be in a domain of a bound plural variable, but it cannot be = in a domain of a bound singular variable because it is not an individual.
>>

Constants are n= ot in the domain of variables, it's their referents that are in the domain.= And plural and singular quantifiers can share the same domain. I think wha= t you want to say is that a variable bound by a singular quantifier cannot = take more than one individual value at a time.

(7)<<
lo (LE)
It is prefixed to selbri, and forms a plural constant that refers to what s= atisfies x1, the first place of the selbri. If a quantifier follows {lo}, t= he quantifier represents the sum of all the referents of the plural constan= t. In the case that a quantifier follows {lo}, a sumti may follow it, and t= he quantifier represents the sum of all the referents of the sumti.
>>

I think "numb= er", "count" or "quantity" would be better than "sum" there. To take an ext= reme example: "lo ci namcu" has three referents, three numbers. But "ci" is= not (necessarily) the sum of the three numbers. The three numbers could be= 1, 2 and 3. Their sum is 6, while their number is 3.

That nitpick aside, the second part is a= t least unclear. In "lo ci ko'a", "ci" is the number of referents of "lo ci= ko'a", but "ko'a" could have more than three referents. If you want to exp= ress that three is the number of referents of the inner sumti as well you n= eed "lo ro ci ko'a". "lo ci lo mu gerku" has three referents, but the inner= sumti has five.

 (8)<<
An empty set is {lo selcmi be no da}, and an ex= pression {lo no broda} is officially meaningless (see Section 3.13D"=. This implies that an empty set c= annot be expressed with {lo'i/le'i/la'i}.


There's another problem with the = "lo'i" definition. Can "lo selcmi be lo broda" be any set that has lo broda= among its members, or is it the one and only set that has lo broda as its = sole members? "cmima" only says that x1 is/are among the members of x2, doe= s "selcmi" say that its x2 are all the members of its x1? Open question.

mu'o mi'e xorxes




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