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[216.39.63.119]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id jx10si1539640pbd.2.2014.05.24.13.38.02 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Sat, 24 May 2014 13:38:02 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 216.39.63.119 as permitted sender) client-ip=216.39.63.119; Received: from [216.39.60.172] by nm1.access.bullet.mail.gq1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 24 May 2014 20:38:02 -0000 Received: from [216.39.60.231] by tm8.access.bullet.mail.gq1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 24 May 2014 20:38:01 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1002.access.mail.gq1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 24 May 2014 20:38:01 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 938727.38933.bm@omp1002.access.mail.gq1.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 74796 invoked by uid 60001); 24 May 2014 20:38:01 -0000 X-YMail-OSG: sv78Ex0VM1kO3eznX38gb3Zv80HwN8nz6ml36fbemo07Kme O_iLaBNw88ORJSpZXaK4TnxPHXsGZD9wsl8TaTGbFmZaU7WXY1pIUxvec0Ud J6aH_fVil.jNCTtgUd9lHEuKWoLtjQhOQ9gAr4VdjtAQGgy_wJme3UA92jFB EFR6mKcLbwau1uMzusn9NVW9rPaGSBG9MNcQ6tIYdPszo8nYyhjm_eF3qZQY h_JRdTnCKZM9XU08hNBIyQxzPtzqM39AMG..zpLTVrJaPLqax99Xfnl2nZdt ba8TmS2B3_SWUGIMl9ZHl4NMfqSclg7wTzBDj_wJSEH2UjamCbUJIJFU3_Sl g002X9KxxXKuS92Ug0riXRfVLISPLnl6sr2L0jOmc2M1fSbxdHf.izGXAuT1 2Rnb2JS4Bop0FLNXITdr15H649CkY6vuEvtE.IDGItvUgVqOK7kbrRu4SATV 2P77HX7tg0RexsMhoWYgGq5kfh8PAwxRJ2Oc_pnwQFrXlrwRulRyVB3Hnh9M OLOoygMswk3PsnczB3GpLJdaWjt0_B23DUQAd92MnYngnknN6lurHbm.6VrI IN0ca6px7Mc7BwxxFXyRtmGOO.Po4VXWRXZZRU.MqbrHxlzzHuIFb_eqh4KG v6XjM_zbLKWmu34qeWkse1eYbPP.HxUQOWA9v9Oflk4yPVJ.tY5P1xEbr_gO r6I_EIzkl4XbQjKUkRS3vBGSYZdz59nHT9dIuq8ddGpm1hs3feKi7 Received: from [99.92.109.82] by web181104.mail.ne1.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sat, 24 May 2014 13:38:01 PDT X-Rocket-MIMEInfo: 002.001,WWVzLCBpdCDCoGlzIHRpbWUgdG8gbW92ZSB0aGlzIHRvIGFub3RoZXIgdGhyZWFkLCDCoFRvIHJvdW5kIG9mZiBoZXJlLCBob3dldmVyLCBpZiAnbG8nIGlzIHRvIGJlIHVzZWQgYXMgeG9yeGVzIGFyZ3VlZCBmb3Igb3ZlciB0aGUgeWVhcnMsIHRoZW4gZWl0aGVyIGV2ZXJ5IHBhcnQgb2YgZXZlcnkgYnJvZGEgbXVzdCBhbHNvIGJlIGEgYnJvZGEgb3IgZWxzZSAnbG8gYnJvZGEnIGRvZXMgbm90IGFsd2F5cyByZWZlciB0byBhIGJyb2RhLiDCoEVhY2ggb2YgdGhlc2UgaGFzIGNvbnNlcXVlbmNlcyB3cnQgdGgBMAEBAQE- X-Mailer: YahooMailWebService/0.8.188.663 References: <53800942.9030407@lojban.org> <1400948010.93944.YahooMailNeo@web181103.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <53D0F569-A434-4953-9A1A-3F8D2001A8BB@yahoo.com> <5380F582.4010503@gmx.de> Message-ID: <1400963881.57978.YahooMailNeo@web181104.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 24 May 2014 13:38:01 -0700 (PDT) From: "'John E Clifford' via lojban" Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] Balningau: The Great Update To: "lojban@googlegroups.com" In-Reply-To: <5380F582.4010503@gmx.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 216.39.63.119 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass header.i=@yahoo.com; dmarc=pass (p=REJECT dis=NONE) header.from=yahoo.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Original-From: John E Clifford Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="-482694697-234337836-1400963881=:57978" X-Spam-Score: -0.1 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.1 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / ---482694697-234337836-1400963881=:57978 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yes, it =A0is time to move this to another thread, =A0To round off here, ho= wever, if 'lo' is to be used as xorxes argued for over the years, then eith= er every part of every broda must also be a broda or else 'lo broda' does n= ot always refer to a broda. =A0Each of these has consequences wrt the defin= ition of 'lo', the second obviously. the first because there are then on in= dividuals to enumerate with internal quantifiers (or external, for that mat= ter). The living/dead/squashed issue does not enter in an interesting way, = since the issue arises whatever the universe of discourse assigns to 'broda= '. On Saturday, May 24, 2014 2:39 PM, selpa'i wrote: =20 la .pycyn. cu cusku di'e > But at least the last of these may > include in the referent of 'lo broda' things which are not broda in any > sense, but rather, for example, broda bits. (There was broda all over my > bumper after I plowed into a herd of brodas.) Whether or not those things are considered things that {broda} depends=20 on the universe of discourse. There is no pre-defined set of things=20 which can and can't satisfy {broda} in all contexts. >Of course, this possibility does also rely on there not being > any absolute individuals, since me here extends below things which are > brodas (individual brodas still have members, they just aren't brodas). If the universe of discourse in question makes no distinction between an=20 alive broda and one that got squashed, then they both {broda} equally.=20 In another context, they may be considered distinct and then only one of=20 them will {broda}, and the other is something else. None of this is strictly tied to {lo} or xorlo, but to the semantics of=20 universes of discourse. mi'e la selpa'i mu'o --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. ---482694697-234337836-1400963881=:57978 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Yes, i= t  is time to move this to another thread,  To round off here, ho= wever, if 'lo' is to be used as xorxes argued for over the years, then eith= er every part of every broda must also be a broda or else 'lo broda' does n= ot always refer to a broda.  Each of these has consequences wrt the de= finition of 'lo', the= second obviously. the first because there are then on individuals to enume= rate with internal quantifiers (or external, for that matter). The living/d= ead/squashed issue does not enter in an interesting way, since the issue ar= ises whatever the universe of discourse assigns to 'broda'.



On Saturday, May 24, 2014 2:39 PM, selpa'= i <seladwa@gmx.de> wrote:
<= br class=3D"" style=3D"">
la .pycyn. cu cusku di'e
>= But at least the last of these may
> include in the referent of 'lo broda' things which are not broda in a= ny
> sense, but rather, for example, broda bits. (There was broda all over my
> bumper after I plowed into a herd of brodas.)

Whether or not those things are considered things that {broda} depends on the universe of discourse. There = is no pre-defined set of things
wh= ich can and can't satisfy {broda} in all contexts.

>Of course, th= is possibility does also rely on there not being
> any absolute individuals, since me here extends below th= ings which are
> brodas (individ= ual brodas still have members, they just aren't brodas).

If the unive= rse of discourse in question makes no distinction between an
alive broda and one that got squa= shed, then they both {broda} equally.
In another context, they may be considered distinct and then only one= of
them will {broda}, and the oth= er is something else.

None of this is strictly tied to {lo} or xorlo,= but to the semantics of
universes= of discourse.

mi'e la selpa'i mu'o


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