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[216.39.63.21]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id bu7si1593250pad.0.2014.05.24.13.41.51 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Sat, 24 May 2014 13:41:51 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 216.39.63.21 as permitted sender) client-ip=216.39.63.21; Received: from [216.39.60.175] by nm23.access.bullet.mail.gq1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 24 May 2014 20:41:51 -0000 Received: from [216.39.60.246] by tm11.access.bullet.mail.gq1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 24 May 2014 20:41:51 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1017.access.mail.gq1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 24 May 2014 20:41:51 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 393775.97494.bm@omp1017.access.mail.gq1.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 54551 invoked by uid 60001); 24 May 2014 20:41:50 -0000 X-YMail-OSG: uquINxEVM1nExlrtoGxfB8FgYilrtqALOaw.kNgfkXjpeMH U8pxOj47Jwi5AY0YnjQ3riga1_qxsHw2A3bvCv8aL8YPpXqqRZ6ab6X_jHEp gEE6NiF8sl5lCVwmImSprFLmo_eUZC_Jv8XBYyGqH3WMVQhd6G8MTfyhxV4h P0f20x9bwyFGnvDM9e4Brbv61zuts0.PNe.cxoW7_oRjxiytGhWi_G4sZnpH aae4C4UoXhi7.K_dbjxeH42Uxmh3pwYl3MSmbnTZyPusaclBGK9kfwp3CHMJ aTe3vgc2AqZK7ftOE1ADrzdwCy7bsEGy1zWnES.jk6hpwBbS1WP9HjZrGxy0 ISFxECUeTuSPyAwX1pL5TU8xdrOniZuz0D4mjd20.7xy0DkcdAQx5.WGehPj LyGRKdLO_idGuC4uJB8wjhR38PLclf1.sfAqzKxGiaRFyQr72cgIUTVrcPFz BPuc0aUyAnXhIFxPMCbkJk4PS_k3egH3NE8Zx2myneVO2em0RL0pDbhq_8KB MFkDuCPIExwG2QN.rCaxNFeT75SaPY.oqTijW_YdKeqDoJIIWAuGD6Djqx_b IAtoOOfjcvjHxDQjWyomsDA2eKn6bKIFzHQDJwfHUjQwt7G6HIfWmM9P4gcy erm9N.ou4tKG9yi_ViwAEgIrAIuOV_h5mzvRTKCZqYeo9sn7GrcGt4DysBAr kSt_f05owsycX_9LAb67Bz36mhur8u9qmzK1DGpH6M87UhVcsP1s- Received: from [99.92.109.82] by web181105.mail.ne1.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sat, 24 May 2014 13:41:50 PDT X-Rocket-MIMEInfo: 002.001,Tk8gaW5kaXZpZHVhbHMgdG8gZW51bWVyYXRlCgoKCgpPbiBTYXR1cmRheSwgTWF5IDI0LCAyMDE0IDM6MzggUE0sICdKb2huIEUgQ2xpZmZvcmQnIHZpYSBsb2piYW4gPGxvamJhbkBnb29nbGVncm91cHMuY29tPiB3cm90ZToKIAoKClllcywgaXQgwqBpcyB0aW1lIHRvIG1vdmUgdGhpcyB0byBhbm90aGVyIHRocmVhZCwgwqBUbyByb3VuZCBvZmYgaGVyZSwgaG93ZXZlciwgaWYgJ2xvJyBpcyB0byBiZSB1c2VkIGFzIHhvcnhlcyBhcmd1ZWQgZm9yIG92ZXIgdGhlIHllYXJzLCB0aGVuIGVpdGhlciBldmVyeSABMAEBAQE- X-Mailer: YahooMailWebService/0.8.188.663 References: <53800942.9030407@lojban.org> <1400948010.93944.YahooMailNeo@web181103.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <53D0F569-A434-4953-9A1A-3F8D2001A8BB@yahoo.com> <5380F582.4010503@gmx.de> <1400963881.57978.YahooMailNeo@web181104.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1400964110.20532.YahooMailNeo@web181105.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 24 May 2014 13:41:50 -0700 (PDT) From: "'John E Clifford' via lojban" Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] Balningau: The Great Update To: "lojban@googlegroups.com" In-Reply-To: <1400963881.57978.YahooMailNeo@web181104.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 216.39.63.21 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass header.i=@yahoo.com; dmarc=pass (p=REJECT dis=NONE) header.from=yahoo.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Original-From: John E Clifford Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="564456775-1439115359-1400964110=:20532" X-Spam-Score: -0.1 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.1 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / --564456775-1439115359-1400964110=:20532 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable NO individuals to enumerate On Saturday, May 24, 2014 3:38 PM, 'John E Clifford' via lojban wrote: =20 Yes, it =A0is time to move this to another thread, =A0To round off here, ho= wever, if 'lo' is to be used as xorxes argued for over the years, then eith= er every part of every broda must also be a broda or else 'lo broda' does n= ot always refer to a broda. =A0Each of these has consequences wrt the defin= ition of 'lo', the second obviously. the first because there are then on in= dividuals to enumerate with internal quantifiers (or external, for that mat= ter). The living/dead/squashed issue does not enter in an interesting way, = since the issue arises whatever the universe of discourse assigns to 'broda= '. On Saturday, May 24, 2014 2:39 PM, selpa'i wrote: =20 la .pycyn. cu cusku di'e > But at least the last of these may > include in the referent of 'lo broda' things which are not broda in any > sense, but rather, for example, broda bits. (There was broda all over my > bumper after I plowed into a herd of brodas.) Whether or not those things are considered things that {broda} depends=20 on the universe of discourse. There is no pre-defined set of things=20 which can and can't satisfy {broda} in all contexts. >Of course, this possibility does also rely on there not being > any absolute individuals, since me here extends below things which are > brodas (individual brodas still have members, they just aren't brodas). If the universe of discourse in question makes no distinction between an=20 alive broda and one that got squashed, then they both {broda} equally.=20 In another context, they may be considered distinct and then only one of=20 them will {broda}, and the other is something else. None of this is strictly tied to {lo} or xorlo, but to the semantics of=20 universes of discourse. mi'e la selpa'i mu'o --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --564456775-1439115359-1400964110=:20532 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
NO individuals to enumerate


On Saturday, May 24, 2014 3:38 PM, 'John E Clifford'= via lojban <lojban@googlegroups.com> wrote:

=
Yes, it  is time to move this to another thread,  T= o round off here, however, if 'lo' is to be used as xorxes argued for over = the years, then either every part of every broda must also be a broda or el= se 'lo broda' does not always refer to a broda.  Each of these has con= sequences wrt the definition of 'lo', the second obviously. the first because there are then on i= ndividuals to enumerate with internal quantifiers (or external, for that ma= tter). The living/dead/squashed issue does not enter in an interesting way,= since the issue arises whatever the universe of discourse assigns to 'brod= a'.

<= div class=3D"yiv3897307834qtdSeparateBR">

On Saturday, May 24, 2014 2:39 PM= , selpa'i <seladwa@gmx.de> wrote:


la .pycyn. cu cusku di'e
> But at least the last of these may
> include in the referent of 'lo broda' things which are not broda in a= ny
> sense, but rat= her, for example, broda bits. (There was broda all over my
> bumper after I plowed into a herd of = brodas.)

Whether or not those things are co= nsidered things that {broda} depends
on the universe of discourse. There is no pre-defined set o= f things
which can an= d can't satisfy {broda} in all contexts.

&g= t;Of course, this possibility does also rely on there not being
> any absolute individuals, si= nce me here extends below things which are
> brodas (individual brodas still have members, the= y just aren't brodas).

If the universe of discourse in question makes no distinctio= n between an
alive broda and one = that got squashed, then they both {broda} equally.
In another context, they may be considered di= stinct and then only one of
them will {broda}, and the other is something else.

None of this is strictly tied to {lo} or xorlo, but to the = semantics of
universe= s of discourse.

mi'e la selpa'i mu'o


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