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[216.39.63.158]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id bu7si1601420pad.0.2014.05.24.14.08.38 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Sat, 24 May 2014 14:08:38 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 216.39.63.158 as permitted sender) client-ip=216.39.63.158; Received: from [216.39.60.176] by nm10.access.bullet.mail.gq1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 24 May 2014 21:08:38 -0000 Received: from [216.39.60.244] by tm12.access.bullet.mail.gq1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 24 May 2014 21:08:38 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1015.access.mail.gq1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 24 May 2014 21:08:38 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 605593.46563.bm@omp1015.access.mail.gq1.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 59311 invoked by uid 60001); 24 May 2014 21:08:38 -0000 X-YMail-OSG: pjEZRk0VM1nFvklMN96hsgWCnCDN2Oq037XJ1EQ8EP.sxzh msydo0_TP0szwd.eKANrEzwyL0_8RNVG91zz9Ug5SPILV6jznMLJOGOS5J7q 8wvFEo50dZEnZaznBp.5WjByuDrv0FbHGpuU8uoWTkGjDDfsMpK2kATXAEIC a5u0lvW8QBazw3pH_IEFjdWk0Vqfjzwix8xDlOhPZ2Ha7JOQ8wMXpsaxWFb_ nL12iN9HQfcm2lr0U_cuYD9Fk4.NNXntAs.5137xOcS7Tiz4T5twN9KUGVZ9 Qcw9i42R217jxrurQaZ9I96cIj8Xl8zzKTkiOSjX9OGTanmzlqZmFkY9Sqn4 pnNJfSJcmvgjnqeFsh6PYqJn2qJjCc18Yj1FtTaqzPd39B3pdn_sPPXUtzKs DPq.ZNf1kbTVllnNXXKgxXqQo2O8Hhua_H8Enrzy3DF.hhGo2J1RZHNNrVq1 f0MmwRWoswhvudFS6.ZtcPpQ9EG1Rs9ziK85ko.7LemBP_9_GgpXSn7Ntf2K wK6Z1CV8wgiSnQ4bjaC8kV0vD1hcqkXKpRD537xwIcsnp_ikz4_jRGZetIj5 k Received: from [99.92.109.82] by web181106.mail.ne1.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sat, 24 May 2014 14:08:38 PDT X-Rocket-MIMEInfo: 002.001,PDxUb2RheSBhdCAyOjMxwqBQTQoKCk9uIFNhdCwgTWF5IDI0LCAyMDE0IGF0IDQ6MDUgUE0sICdKb2huIEUuIENsaWZmb3JkJyB2aWEgbG9qYmFuwqA8bG9qYmFuQGdvb2dsZWdyb3Vwcy5jb20.wqB3cm90ZToKCkludGVyZXN0aW5nLCBnaXZlbiB0aGUgYXJkdW91cyBoaXN0b3J5IG9mICdsbycuIMKgQXNzdW1pbmcgdGhhdCAnem8nZScgaXMgaGVyZSB1c2VkIGluIHRoZSBzZW5zZSBvZiAidGhlIGNvbnRleHR1YWxseSBzcGVjaWZpZWQgdGhpbmciLCB3aGljaCBpcyBhIGNoYW5nZSAocmVzdHJpY3Rpb24pIGYBMAEBAQE- X-Mailer: YahooMailWebService/0.8.188.663 References: Message-ID: <1400965718.28402.YahooMailNeo@web181106.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 24 May 2014 14:08:38 -0700 (PDT) From: "'John E Clifford' via lojban" Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Subject: [lojban] lo broda cu broda (was Bainingau) To: "lojban@googlegroups.com" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 216.39.63.158 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass header.i=@yahoo.com; dmarc=pass (p=REJECT dis=NONE) header.from=yahoo.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Original-From: John E Clifford Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="-910415156-574246432-1400965718=:28402" X-Spam-Score: -0.1 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.1 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / ---910415156-574246432-1400965718=:28402 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <=A0wrote: Interesting, given the arduous history of 'lo'. =A0Assuming that 'zo'e' is = here used in the sense of "the contextually specified thing", which is a ch= ange (restriction) from CLL, this 'lo' no longer does the job that led to t= he argument for its acceptance, since 'lo broda cu broda' is now a tautolog= y, unless I've missed something crucial. =A0'lo broda' was meant, in most s= tages of the argument, including the last (I thought) to cover the semantic= range of English "a broda", "the broda", "brodas" and "broda" in the non d= efinite senses. =A0But at least the last of these may include in the refere= nt of 'lo broda' things which are not broda in any sense, but rather, for e= xample, broda bits. If broda bits don't broda, they shouldn't be referred to as "lo broda", no.= But whether broda bits broda or not depends on context and the meaning of = "broda", not on "lo". =A0 (There was broda all over my bumper after I plowed into a herd of brodas.) = =A0 If "lo broda cu preja lo do karcybandu" then I would say that "lo preja be = lo do karcybandu cu broda", yes. =A0 This possibility comes out in the technical definition of 'lo broda' as the= salient node in the upward lattice of the field of jest (me) on the set of= brodas (in the domain). =A0Of course, this possibility does also rely on t= here not being any absolute individuals, since me here extends below things= which are brodas (individual brodas still have members, they just aren't b= rodas). > > So we agree that there are no absolute individuals, just contextual ones.>> =A0As noted, the problem remains whatever the universe assigns to 'broda'. = =A0If every part of each broda is a broda, then there are no (even relative= ) individuals to enumerate. =A0If there are ultimate brodas then the full g= enerality which 'lo' was to represent is unrealized and we are thrown back = into muddled world of Mr. Broda and Brodatude and myopic singulars, with ev= en less support than we had before. =A0That may not be a great crisis but i= t is a serious disappointment, given that we had a clean way out once. (I s= uspect that the appeal of 'lo broda cu broda'=A0=A0derives from the old mud= dles about individuals and masses which the whole array of Lesniewskian set= theory and the distributive/ collective predication were introduced -- or = apparently weren't, since xorlo is declared to be just the rules about atta= ched quantifiers -- to solve.)=A0 --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. ---910415156-574246432-1400965718=:28402 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<<Today at 2:31 PM

On Sat, May 24, 2014 at 4:05 PM, 'John E= . Clifford' via lojban <lojban@googlegroups.com> wrote:
Interesting, given the arduous hi= story of 'lo'.  Assuming that 'zo'e' is here used in the sense of "the= contextually specified thing", which is a change (restriction) from CLL, this 'lo' no longer does the job that led to the a= rgument for its acceptance, since 'lo broda cu broda' is now a tautology, u= nless I've missed something crucial.  'lo broda' was meant, in most st= ages of the argument, including the last (I thought) to cover the semantic = range of English "a broda", "the broda", "brodas" and "broda" in the non de= finite senses.  But at least the last of these may include in the referent of 'lo broda' things which are not broda in any se= nse, but rather, for example, broda bits.

=
If broda bits don't broda, they shouldn't be referred to = as "lo broda", no. But whether broda bits broda or not depends on context a= nd the meaning of "broda", not on "lo".
 
=
=
(There was broda all over my bumper after I plowed into a herd of brodas.)  

If "lo broda cu preja lo do karcyband= u" then I would say that "lo preja be lo do karcybandu cu broda", yes.
 
This possibility comes out in the technical definition of 'lo broda' as the salient node in the u= pward lattice of the field of jest (me) on the set of brodas (in the domain). &n= bsp;Of course, this possibility does also rely on there not being any absol= ute individuals, since me here extends below things which are brodas (indiv= idual brodas still have members, they just aren't brodas).

So we agree that there are no absolute i= ndividuals, just contextual ones.>>

=
 As noted, the problem remains whatever the universe assigns to 'broda'.  = ;If every part of each broda is a broda, then there are no (even relative) individuals to en= umerate.  If there are ultimate brodas then the full generality which = 'lo' was to represent is unrealized and we are thrown back into muddled wor= ld of Mr. Broda and Brodatude and myopic singulars, with even less support = than we had before.  That may not be a great crisis but it is a seriou= s disappointment, given that we had a clean way out once. (I suspect that t= he appeal of 'lo broda cu broda'  derives from t= he old muddles about individuals and masses which the whole array of Lesnie= wskian set theory and the distributive/ collective predication were introdu= ced -- or apparently weren't, since xorlo is declared to be just the rules = about attached quantifiers -- to solve.) 

 

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