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[216.109.115.134]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id zs4si1567089pbc.1.2014.05.24.15.11.12 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Sat, 24 May 2014 15:11:12 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 216.109.115.134 as permitted sender) client-ip=216.109.115.134; Received: from [66.196.81.161] by nm21.access.bullet.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 24 May 2014 22:11:11 -0000 Received: from [66.196.81.136] by tm7.access.bullet.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 24 May 2014 22:11:11 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1012.access.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 24 May 2014 22:11:11 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 691784.85722.bm@omp1012.access.mail.bf1.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 58154 invoked by uid 60001); 24 May 2014 22:11:10 -0000 X-YMail-OSG: uAmqf2YVM1k4P4aF3I7cfph3zqcQ6cEX.tY7qepC9ofUXZA hq4mWtNa7cthWoEqwCfC6.IIYnFFA7wMGsa4p5s24WgXRB2dKH2Js2d7xOAA t0YHYW8oZLswpBR3Zc9Y5oukKsdwpVdUSqXRHp.S2h2d9YqbS4VMBn6pBTT7 PRqnVnPB_KxVulpjAmE9ota.OfnNTX.iV7rBWv6VxLT_sL06RPexiOzoYI8O sXKzS3ysqilF2m7AT1h3PmnzTTiE7nkTriq7QN_vW_DFoVw_aSVcnIi_0B.H UBFR7fZAi9RgwaVKQ.6QFPAr7PdvP_XqlxFDDhYdIKmSRlHBEFwSsFTe2Z8D g3lAS3oGbL.fvHg_AEgpvfe1piYTdObxdpA2C9vFUV79yJtUsp_5IrfYOHOt n2h8zGUs6u_JQMNpmQFdU4dfMJc.Ei.sxEX8a1Cvt.bsxekI1eb2thdVTKZt AdVZJZJdXxgrtb8UqxaLhcX4Z.77z7Q1YiPx5h9m8PspM9VWIGBpj0mtsVhH WMZWYOcavT_lSJx09Kxsu02q3RWc0UI9LEYRKbaItlsMAe1c40S3k33yMlkB hi.MIUstR0FGk3x2wx_AtBT5ndmfkFt08uO.7gJPhWcx1pIcjwsrymyK6Xvx zUFYun1g6mvA7afFGwbVEfSz_azx73KLSRT3vUY8m2ow7ewc5VR4Xzsq6d8A k9CGx3CjsY3eoGTnAl5UJclR.kU3PkFw6tqSow8QyPZzRkt_dsYCF Received: from [99.92.109.82] by web181101.mail.ne1.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sat, 24 May 2014 15:11:10 PDT X-Rocket-MIMEInfo: 002.001,QXMgaSBzYWlkLCB0aGUgcHJvYmxlbXMgZG8gbm90IGRlcGVuZCB1cG9uIGhvdyB0aGUgZXh0ZW5zaW9ucyBvZiBwcmVkaWNhdGVzIGFyZSBzZXQgdXAsIGFsdGhvdWdoIHlvdXIgd2F5IG9mIHB1dHRpbmcgaXQgbWFrZXMgbWF0dGVycyBldmVuIHNsaWdodGx5IG1vcmUgcGFyYWRveGljYWwgc291bmRpbmcuIMKgQ2xlYXJseSwgd2l0aGluIGEgZ2l2ZW4gdW5pdmVyc2UgYWxsIGFuZCBvbmx5IGJyb2RhcyBhcmUgYnJvZGFzOyB3aGF0ZXZlciB0aGUgcmVsYXRpb25zaGlwIGJldHdlZW4gZGlmZmVyZW50IGJyb2QBMAEBAQE- X-Mailer: YahooMailWebService/0.8.188.663 References: <1400965718.28402.YahooMailNeo@web181106.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <53810CB9.1000601@gmx.de> Message-ID: <1400969470.46249.YahooMailNeo@web181101.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 24 May 2014 15:11:10 -0700 (PDT) From: "'John E Clifford' via lojban" Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] lo broda cu broda (was Baliningau) To: "lojban@googlegroups.com" In-Reply-To: <53810CB9.1000601@gmx.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 216.109.115.134 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass header.i=@yahoo.com; dmarc=pass (p=REJECT dis=NONE) header.from=yahoo.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Original-From: John E Clifford Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="1013620071-450436880-1400969470=:46249" X-Spam-Score: -0.1 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.1 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / --1013620071-450436880-1400969470=:46249 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable As i said, the problems do not depend upon how the extensions of predicates= are set up, although your way of putting it makes matters even slightly mo= re paradoxical sounding. =A0Clearly, within a given universe all and only b= rodas are brodas; whatever the relationship between different brodas may be= varies from one set to another: parts of djacu are djacu, parts of cifno m= ay not be (usually are not, in fact) and so on. Oc ourse, the notion of a v= roda that is not a full broda just does not make sense in any uiniverse (th= ough what one universe would consider not a full broda may be one in anothe= r (English lions might include things that are not cifno, say). =A0The poin= t of the case was simply that, in solving the gruesome mess (you may have t= o have been there) about masses and the like, the cheapest solution was to = allow that lo broda might contain no-broda broda bits (and, indeed, not jus= t masses, as it turned out: when I see a rabbit, I actually SEE only rabbit bits, for example. =A0Gavagai!). =A0So all the criteria just don't = enter the question at all (assuming we want to be able to count brodas).=A0 Sapir-Whorf lives and cultural neutrality is dead! =A0The whole point (well= , not the whole, but the only interesting part) of cultural neutrality and = all was that Lojban was not to specify how reality was cut up but to work e= qually well however you wanted to slice it. This took the form of allowing = any view to work and not to be required and the metaphysical (if you will) = side of xorlo (whatever all that was that was not about quantifiers with 'l= o') was the way to achieving that. =A0Without -- as your statement suggests= -- claiming that there is a unique world which can be sliced in different = ways (with the hidden assumptions that there really is a right one -- that'= s in Whorf, too, but with a different answer). =A0The goal in Lojban (well,= iot was at one time for some Lojbanists) is just that all these various wo= rlds are one one world and we can refer to any one them any time within our= one language, or we can say things that do not in any way specify which one -- and without having to stop and set up a new UD to continue. = =A0To be sure, the more or less official way Lojban does it is one choice, = but it works and attempts to it from other bases pretty much failed within = the framework of FOPL, which is inherently chunky (or Aristotelian, which s= ounds better). None of which has anything to do with the original issue, of course. On Saturday, May 24, 2014 4:18 PM, selpa'i wrote: =20 la .pycyn. cu cusku di'e > As noted, the problem remains whatever the universe assigns to 'broda'. >=A0 If every part of each broda is a broda, then there are no (even > relative) individuals to enumerate.=A0 If there are ultimate brodas then > the full generality which 'lo' was to represent is unrealized and we are > thrown back into muddled world of Mr. Broda and Brodatude and myopic > singulars, with even less support than we had before. But not every part of each broda is a broda in every universe, and=20 neither do all universes consider only full broda as a broda. It always=20 depends on which differentiation criteria are applied to the world in=20 each situation. Mr. Broda is just one way of slicing up the world into referents. There,=20 all broda are considered one and the same (or you could say there is=20 only one broda and then you get to myopic singulars). In another universe, all parts of a missing body could be considered=20 referents of the missing John Smith which police are trying to find. In yet another universe, what you would think of as being one thing can=20 be split into several separated only by their position in time. E.g.=20 each night's moon is a new one. "tonight's moon is prettier than last=20 night's moon". Each situation warrants a new set of differentiation criteria and based=20 on those we get different possible referents which not only {lo} can=20 refer to, but also {le} and {la} and {da}. mi'e la selpa'i mu'o --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --1013620071-450436880-1400969470=:46249 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
As i said, the problems do not depend upon how the= extensions of predicates are set up, although your way of putting it makes= matters even slightly more paradoxical sounding.  Clearly, within a g= iven universe all and only brodas are brodas; whatever the relationship bet= ween different brodas may be varies from one set to another: parts of djacu= are djacu, parts of cifno may not be (usually are not, in fact) and so on.= Oc ourse, the notion of a vroda that is not a full broda just does not mak= e sense in any uiniverse (though what one universe would consider not a ful= l broda may be one in another (English lions might include things that are = not cifno, say).  The point of the case was simply that, in solving th= e gruesome mess (you may have to have been there) about masses and the like, the cheapest solution was to allow that lo broda might contain no-br= oda broda bits (and, indeed, not just masses, as it turned out: when I see = a rabbit, I actually SEE only rabbit bits, for example.  Gavagai!). &n= bsp;So all the criteria just don't enter the question at all (assuming we w= ant to be able to count brodas). 

Sapir-Whorf lives and cultural neutrality is dead! =  The whole point (well, not the whole, but the only interesting part) = of cultural neutrality and all was that Lojban was not to specify how reality was cut up but to work equally well however you wanted to slice it= . This took the form = of allowing any view to work and not to be required and the metaphysical (i= f you will) side of xorlo (whatever all that was that was not about quantif= iers with 'lo') was the way to achieving that.  Without -- as your sta= tement suggests -- claiming that there is a unique world which can be slice= d in different ways (with the hidden assumptions that there really is a rig= ht one -- that's in Whorf, too, but with a different answer).  The goa= l in Lojban (well, iot was at one time for some Lojbanists) is just that al= l these various worlds are one one world and we can refer to any one them a= ny time within our one language, or we can say things that do not in any wa= y specify which one -- and without having to stop and set up a new UD to co= ntinue.  To be sure, the more or less official way Lojban does it is one choice, but it works and attempts to it from other bases pretty muc= h failed within the framework of FOPL, which is inherently chunky (or Arist= otelian, which sounds better).

None of which has anything to do with the original i= ssue, of course.

=


<= div style=3D"font-family: HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial= , 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;">
On Saturday, May 24, 2014 4:18 PM, selpa'i <se= ladwa@gmx.de> wrote:


la .pycyn. cu cusku di'e
> As noted, the prob= lem remains whatever the universe assigns to 'broda'.
>= ;  If every part of each broda is a broda, then there are no (even> relative) individuals to enumerate.  If there are= ultimate brodas then
> the full generality which 'lo'= was to represent is unrealized and we are
> thrown back into muddled worl= d of Mr. Broda and Brodatude and myopic
> singulars, w= ith even less support than we had before.

But not every part of each broda is a broda in every universe, and
neither do all universes consider only full broda as a broda= . It always
depends on which differentiation criteria ar= e applied to the world in
each situation.

Mr. Broda is just one way of slicing up the world in= to referents. There,
all broda are considered one and th= e same (or you could say there is
only one broda and the= n you get to myopic singulars).

In ano= ther universe, all parts of a missing body could be considered
referents of the missing John Smith which police are trying to find.=

In yet another universe, what you would think of as being o= ne thing can
be split into several separated only by the= ir position in time. E.g.
each night's moon is a new one= . "tonight's moon is prettier than last
night's moon".
Each situation warrants a new set of di= fferentiation criteria and based
on those we get differe= nt possible referents which not only {lo} can
refer to, = but also {le} and {la} and {da}.

mi'e = la selpa'i mu'o

--
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To unsubscribe from this group and stop re= ceiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com= .
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this gro= up at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more opt= ions, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.



=

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsub= scribe@googlegroups.com.
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