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Date: Sun, 25 May 2014 05:41:29 -0600
Message-ID: <CAMKwHj3UKg=c4hQnZpY1=u083nnwhOLTGJtiqQF9NHkYPXfA4A@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [lojban] Balningau: The Great Update
From: Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com>
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On Sun, May 25, 2014 at 4:28 AM, Robert LeChevalier <lojbab@lojban.org>wrote:

> <snip>

And by definition, NONE of those categorizations is completely valid,
> because no one has devised a categorization scheme that encompasses both
> the semantic meaning of x1 and that of all the other places which are in
> theory equally important to the gismu semantics.


I haven't dived very far into this hole, myself, but I have looked into the
categorization deal a bit.

For example, there are the "x1 is x2 <metric units> in <measurement type>
by standard x3" gismu, which, with the exception of {mitre}, have the exact
same place structure. (Similarly for the non-metric measurement gismu.)

There all the creature gismu, which with some exceptions, are all "x1 is a
<creature> of species x2".

{klama}, {litru}, {muvdu}, and not quite {pluta} differ only in which of
the places of {klama} they do or do not contain. ({pluta} has an extra
place for the set of points defining the route, as well as reordering the
{klama} places it has.)

I certainly agree that categorizing purely based on the x1 is a BAD idea,
but I contend that there have indeed been efforts to categorized based on
the entire meaning.

<snip>
> Of course, since the language is intended to "go feral" and cease to be
> under prescriptive control, it can be argued that we already have conceded
> that time-free sense in incorrect.  Or perhaps any apparent rule which does
> change through usage is therefore not-a-rule.  In which case we may never
> know "the rules of the language" as long as there are Lojban users.  (This
> tension may indicate why many Lojbanists like the idea of the community
> deciding what the language is through usage, while at the same time want a
> perpetual BPFK around to codify usage questions prescriptively (which is
> arguably exactly the opposite of community decision.)
>

I personally do not think Lojban should ever stop being a prescriptive
language, and if you want my reasons for it, I direct you to Robin's rant.
Although I'm unlikely to live long enough to see it, I might be persuaded
to change my stance if and when a significant community of first-language
natives of Lojban exist.

As far as this "endeavor", I would consider this effort to be an
in-the-works BPFK change proposal, to be potentially reviewed once the
freeze had been lifted, and nothing more. As anything other than a change
proposal, I emphatically agree with .lojbab. as to it being a
language-schism, especially as has been announced not merely as an
unofficial project, but also as a self-professed attempt to undermine the
established authority- the very definition of a schism.
-- 
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On S=
un, May 25, 2014 at 4:28 AM, Robert LeChevalier <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:lojbab@lojban.org" target=3D"_blank">lojbab@lojban.org</a>&gt;=
</span> wrote:<br>

<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">&lt;snip&gt;</blockquote><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padd=
ing-left:1ex">

And by definition, NONE of those categorizations is completely valid, becau=
se no one has devised a categorization scheme that encompasses both the sem=
antic meaning of x1 and that of all the other places which are in theory eq=
ually important to the gismu semantics.</blockquote>

<div><br></div><div>I haven&#39;t dived very far into this hole, myself, bu=
t I have looked into the categorization deal a bit.<br>
<br></div><div>For example, there are the &quot;x1 is x2 &lt;metric units&g=
t; in &lt;measurement type&gt; by standard x3&quot; gismu, which, with the =
exception of {mitre}, have the exact same place structure. (Similarly for t=
he non-metric measurement gismu.)<br>

<br></div><div>There all the creature gismu, which with some exceptions, ar=
e all &quot;x1 is a &lt;creature&gt; of species x2&quot;.<br><br></div><div=
>{klama}, {litru}, {muvdu}, and not quite {pluta} differ only in which of t=
he places of {klama} they do or do not contain. ({pluta} has an extra place=
 for the set of points defining the route, as well as reordering the {klama=
} places it has.)<br>
<br></div><div>I certainly agree that categorizing purely based on the x1 i=
s a BAD idea, but I contend that there have indeed been efforts to categori=
zed based on the entire meaning.<br></div><div><br></div><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rg=
b(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
&lt;snip&gt;<br><div>
Of course, since the language is intended to &quot;go feral&quot; and cease=
 to be under prescriptive control, it can be argued that we already have co=
nceded that time-free sense in incorrect. =A0Or perhaps any apparent rule w=
hich does change through usage is therefore not-a-rule. =A0In which case we=
 may never know &quot;the rules of the language&quot; as long as there are =
Lojban users. =A0(This tension may indicate why many Lojbanists like the id=
ea of the community deciding what the language is through usage, while at t=
he same time want a perpetual BPFK around to codify usage questions prescri=
ptively (which is arguably exactly the opposite of community decision.)<br>
</div></blockquote></div><br clear=3D"all"></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"=
>I personally do not think Lojban should ever stop being a prescriptive lan=
guage, and if you want my reasons for it, I direct you to Robin&#39;s rant.=
 Although I&#39;m unlikely to live long enough to see it, I might be persua=
ded to change my stance if and when a significant community of first-langua=
ge natives of Lojban exist.<br>
<br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra">As far as this &quot;endeavor&quot;, I=
 would consider this effort to be an in-the-works BPFK change proposal, to =
be potentially reviewed once the freeze had been lifted, and nothing more. =
As anything other than a change proposal, I emphatically agree with .lojbab=
. as to it being a language-schism, especially as has been announced not me=
rely as an unofficial project, but also as a self-professed attempt to unde=
rmine the established authority- the very definition of a schism.<br>
-- <br>mu&#39;o mi&#39;e .aionys.<br><br>.i.e&#39;ucai ko cmima lo pilno be=
 denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo&#39;o<br>(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, =
I am your father. :D )<br>

</div></div>

<p></p>

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