Received: from mail-la0-f63.google.com ([209.85.215.63]:37902) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1WoZRL-0004GH-2M for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Sun, 25 May 2014 07:30:29 -0700 Received: by mail-la0-f63.google.com with SMTP id b8sf629713lan.8 for ; Sun, 25 May 2014 07:30:11 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=i0YgtCPsBq9fbByGLqN79MsBrocoT7v3AqlYlNfLozo=; b=tF3PEuc0Aj+tugULyQDANJN9v0tsf2mPtXqeLMdAyxNb+mzBA0qb022b89cxiwEe/X twvle+N+G9C71wtl63AmEzqe8RHnR8pB54TB/4BXO0Vm6P+dny6LQ48nXd3uvBK0bbZX MKr0zWcKIWJMCnehadUw4PNu2GwUMCU0phI+nhZU4H9Sx943GPeTnrRwatSkFRk2zFrn ZkWx18zczSi3GZRCt0yEWAQjXCNm1KeOq9MvajXHFl2675NrtaulMTzaUaBOZVaCAJwl Zxp52ClMMzgAicWEk25IuPl9PM5MfwrZF1tisK6re0mYZeBPNGHC65INpQNsUFu4ytdK npyQ== X-Received: by 10.152.203.193 with SMTP id ks1mr533lac.29.1401028211183; Sun, 25 May 2014 07:30:11 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.152.6.3 with SMTP id w3ls379285law.72.gmail; Sun, 25 May 2014 07:30:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.152.36.226 with SMTP id t2mr1414026laj.1.1401028210473; Sun, 25 May 2014 07:30:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wg0-x22b.google.com (mail-wg0-x22b.google.com [2a00:1450:400c:c00::22b]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id z6si335678wix.1.2014.05.25.07.30.10 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Sun, 25 May 2014 07:30:10 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c00::22b as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:400c:c00::22b; Received: by mail-wg0-f43.google.com with SMTP id l18so6718202wgh.2 for ; Sun, 25 May 2014 07:30:10 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.180.14.72 with SMTP id n8mr19144000wic.53.1401028210311; Sun, 25 May 2014 07:30:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.194.25.163 with HTTP; Sun, 25 May 2014 07:30:10 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sun, 25 May 2014 18:30:10 +0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Specifying sumti types: another revision of gimste is complete From: Gleki Arxokuna To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c00::22b as permitted sender) smtp.mail=gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f46d04138a25cbcd3804fa3a4c22 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam_score: 0.0 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / --f46d04138a25cbcd3804fa3a4c22 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 2014-05-25 18:11 GMT+04:00 Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas : > > > > On Sun, May 25, 2014 at 8:45 AM, Gleki Arxokuna < > gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote: > >> >>> The x1 of ckaji, for example, can be anything at all, it's not >>> restricted to objects. >>> >> okay, fixed >> > > Are (object, event, text) all the types there are? x1 of ckaji can be of > any type at all, not just those three. > What other possible types you can imagine? > The same goes for mutce, milxe, dukse, satci, and so on. > I'll try to fix that. > In fact any time one of the arguments is a property of another argument, > there's a good chance that the type of that other argument is dictated on= ly > by the type of the ce'u in the property, This also applies to comparative= s > (zmadu, mleca, dunli, simsa,...) It would be easier to revise the list if > you sort it by type signature rather than just alphabetically. > Sort them by x1 or show the tersumti type for each place in separate columns? > For comparatives, the property is a property of each of two arguments, no= t > just the first. > > > >> >>> I don't see why "lo since" couldn't go in the x1 of ckape. >>> >> Because then we dont know what is the property of {lo since} that makes >> it dangerous. >> > > Surely that can't be the reason. In "lo nu kelci lo fagri cu ckape", how > do you know what the property of playing with fire is that makes it > dangerous? > Inject {makau}? > > > Since "object" and "group" are different types, does that mean that you >>> wouldn't accept a group as the x1 or x2 of ckasu? >>> >> >> good point. of course i would accept but for now im not sure how better >> to reflect that in the table. >> >> > I don't think "group" is a type in this sense at all. A few places do > require plural arguments, but most (all?) places allow plural arguments. > This is independent of the type of argument they expect. > Well, "group" is used mostly for species of animal gismu. Any ideas what would be the best name for it for newbies? > > What do you think of something like "mi ckire lo cevni lo nu mi ka'e >>> viska"? >>> >> > You skipped this one. Can't x3 of ckire be an event? > 1. I don't think so. This implies x3 is independent of x2 2. Actually I don't separate events and properties. They can often be in the same places, I agree that this rule needs further clarification. > > >> means you want it to be only for abstract cones? Would a traffic cone >>> qualify as a konju in your sense? >>> >> that cone is characterized by two segments such that one has been >> revolved around the other one forming the cone. I think we are going to >> delve into Uqbar now since e.g. a traffic triangle is similarly not real= ly >> a triangle and so on meaning that geometrical ideal shapes are impossibl= e >> in this real world. >> > > My question is more basic. You decided to move "konju" from the > bolci/slanu/... class to the linji/kurfa/... class. konju is not the only > word in its class, so if you think it needs to be redefined, shouldn't al= l > other words in that class be redefined as well? Why just "konju"? > Well, okay I can ignore all non-x1 place of {konju} then but this would require discussing tools of describing defining features of all those geometric shapes in a separate thread. > > mu'o mi'e xorxes > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. 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2014-05-25 18:11 GMT+04:00 Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas &l= t;jjllambias@gmai= l.com>:



On Sun, May 25, 2014= at 8:45 AM, Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote:
=

The x1 of ckaji, for example, can be anything at all, it= 9;s not restricted to objects.
okay, fixed=C2=A0

=
Are (object, event, text) all the types there are? x1 of ckaji can be = of any type at all, not just those three.

What other possible types you can imagine?

The same goes for mutce, mil= xe, dukse, satci, and so on.

<= /div>
I'll try to fix that.
=C2=A0
In fact any time one of the arguments is a property of another argument, = there's a good chance that the type of that other argument is dictated = only by the type of the ce'u in the property, This also applies to comp= aratives (zmadu, mleca, dunli, simsa,...) It would be easier to revise the = list if you sort it by type signature rather than just alphabetically.

Sort them by x1 or show = the tersumti type for each place in separate columns?
=C2=A0
For comparatives, the property is a property of each of two arguments, not= just the first.

=C2=A0

I don't see why "lo since" couldn't go in= the x1 of ckape.
Because th= en we dont know what is the property of {lo since} that makes it dangerous.=

Surely that can= 9;t be the reason. In "lo nu kelci lo fagri cu ckape", how do you= know what the property of playing with fire is that makes it dangerous?=C2= =A0
Inject {makau}?
=C2=A0
<= blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px= #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<= div class=3D"gmail_quote">


Since "object" and "group" are different types, does t= hat mean that you wouldn't accept a group as the x1 or x2 of ckasu?

good point. of cou= rse i would accept but for now im not sure how better to reflect that in th= e table.


I don't think "group" is a type in this sense at all. A fe= w places do require plural arguments, but most (all?) places allow plural a= rguments. This is independent of the type of argument they expect.=C2=A0

Well, "group" = is used mostly for species of animal gismu. Any ideas what would be the bes= t name for it for newbies?

=C2=A0

What do you think of something like "mi ckire lo cevni lo nu mi ka= 9;e viska"?

You skipped this one. Can't x3 of c= kire be an event?

1. I don't think so. This implies x3 is independent of x2
2. = Actually I don't separate events and properties. They can often be in t= he same places, I agree that this rule needs further clarification.
=C2=A0
=C2=A0
means you want it to be only for abstract c= ones? Would a traffic cone qualify as a konju in your sense?
that cone is characterized by two segments= such that one has been revolved around the other one forming the cone. I t= hink we are going to delve into Uqbar now since e.g. a traffic triangle is = similarly not really a triangle and so on meaning that geometrical ideal sh= apes are impossible in this real world.

My question is mor= e basic. You decided to move "konju" from the bolci/slanu/... cla= ss to the linji/kurfa/... class. konju is not the only word in its class, s= o if you think it needs to be redefined, shouldn't all other words in t= hat class be redefined as well? Why just "konju"?

Well, okay I can ignore = all non-x1 place of {konju} then but this would require discussing tools of= describing defining features of all those geometric shapes in a separate t= hread.
=C2=A0=C2=A0

mu'o mi'e xorxes


<= /div>

--
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--
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