Received: from mail-ob0-f187.google.com ([209.85.214.187]:35517) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1WoZb9-0004KC-G9 for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Sun, 25 May 2014 07:40:36 -0700 Received: by mail-ob0-f187.google.com with SMTP id wn1sf1903133obc.24 for ; Sun, 25 May 2014 07:40:21 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=OpZ39aSPCGR4/FGuQhi72a+5ATGxY3RBYvMGuSRj5r4=; b=NyeYHDz1c7Sh5jJRYIlQfglSoIRWCObDhKxTTqpjR78fxaj8YikqtTc/yeUlLKPh1g HZHr6Dy9CZXQwoVOE/ajWRKdavw/KLgNGqdTc1BJPRKjocL4fCTmIx4F8olj60FdO+SA gxTnG4KY4F6CvHGRPTWAuw/0rJw21P6Uh2umL6URzeHtIVcmUBNK6o7xmum5FTX6innC 3aGtE2gmKYjVBnvPb/O7l2wi6jjvpu6dW+vE0UUsDb5ja6Dh9F3mSCnaJggiA1cRGIub y+3FiRqeND94HaNWh7hvbUZkWxRCEpIGU0hj6L6T2hh1DTwCEVfXeDCCvYezT865QhF7 e5ZQ== X-Received: by 10.50.29.68 with SMTP id i4mr441152igh.0.1401028821148; Sun, 25 May 2014 07:40:21 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.50.25.105 with SMTP id b9ls1187362igg.41.gmail; Sun, 25 May 2014 07:40:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.68.253.66 with SMTP id zy2mr7775081pbc.1.1401028820793; Sun, 25 May 2014 07:40:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ve0-x234.google.com (mail-ve0-x234.google.com [2607:f8b0:400c:c01::234]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id on5si496250vdb.0.2014.05.25.07.40.20 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Sun, 25 May 2014 07:40:20 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:400c:c01::234 as permitted sender) client-ip=2607:f8b0:400c:c01::234; Received: by mail-ve0-f180.google.com with SMTP id db12so8194866veb.39 for ; Sun, 25 May 2014 07:40:20 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.221.50.70 with SMTP id vd6mr685543vcb.51.1401028820637; Sun, 25 May 2014 07:40:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.220.170.73 with HTTP; Sun, 25 May 2014 07:40:20 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <91db94e6-0999-4eb8-b3aa-0e4447092001@googlegroups.com> References: <52F26B9E.2090001@gmx.de> <5e023b9a-515c-432b-a389-8f9af4766b51@googlegroups.com> <52F29ED8.1050607@gmx.de> <372dd8f1-1920-4afa-8d11-aa55696982a0@googlegroups.com> <03555bbd-cc44-426f-94ee-65d557f2d301@googlegroups.com> <592497c0-5db5-420e-867f-8df1663eca27@googlegroups.com> <52F65A5C.90605@gmx.de> <348c23bf-6d9f-4a05-bfe7-69b141c03cb7@googlegroups.com> <52F776EE.6070406@gmx.de> <6ffd64d2-2e2c-4b83-8722-b7f262f5837a@googlegroups.com> <52F7A4D5.5070106@gmx.de> <56096dec-1969-420d-b4e5-b8539cbe0cc0@googlegroups.com> <52F8FAA2.9030009@gmx.de> <52FE053C.3000604@gmx.de> <1e6d5917-ad1e-4c5b-abb7-5deb92110b83@googlegroups.com> <68bacba4-a957-481c-ba00-211db2de8dc3@googlegroups.com> <2f4f0766-1f52-46f0-80af-b4de86d9b5bd@googlegroups.com> <618e6524-d7f0-46c9-8d0b-bbee2dd0cd41@googlegroups.com> <36c4c2b2-8f8c-4d44-ac8e-48c02d45a233@googlegroups.com> <4b6b2cb9-51e5-47f6-97a9-2dec16406864@googlegroups.com> <390f1b9f-6edd-42f2-8474-ad1f3610cca3@googlegroups.com> <750f9b01-a747-4b12-80ba-e31b7e7bd20e@googlegroups.com> <570dae9f-cda3-42c4-a861-1c7974fe5bfd@googlegroups.com> <1400948594.69568.YahooMailNeo@web181102.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <91db94e6-0999-4eb8-b3aa-0e4447092001@googlegroups.com> Date: Sun, 25 May 2014 11:40:20 -0300 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Individuals and xorlo From: =?UTF-8?Q?Jorge_Llamb=C3=ADas?= To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: jjllambias@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:400c:c01::234 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=jjllambias@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11339a762c9c0304fa3a71d7 X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.7 X-Spam_score_int: -6 X-Spam_bar: / --001a11339a762c9c0304fa3a71d7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, May 25, 2014 at 6:08 AM, guskant wrote: > > Le samedi 24 mai 2014 09:45:37 UTC+9, xorxes a =C3=A9crit : >> >> >> "lo selcmi be no da" works well as a description of the empty set in a >> universe of discourse in which there are only sets. (But then that is >> really the only universe of discourse in which one should mention sets a= t >> all, in my opinion.) >> > > > {lo selcmi be no da} is a standard definition of "empty set" of set > theory. > Yes, but in set theory there are only sets in the universe of discourse. In set theory with ur-elements, the ur-elements don't have members, so they are "lo selcmi be no da", "things with no members", but I don't think they are called empty sets. As far as I'm aware there is only one empty set in set theory, not any number of them. > In other words, {zo'e noi roda naku zo'u ke'a selcmi da}. We can think of > a universe of discourse in which a spoon satisfies {ke'a selcmi no da}, b= ut > it means that the spoon is regarded as an empty set in that universe of > discourse. An empty set is indeed a kind of set, {lo selcmi}. If we wante= d > to imply that a spoon is not a set, we could rather say that a spoon > satisfies {ke'a selcmi zi'o}, in which the meaning of {selcmi} was change= d > by {zi'o}. > I think it's the other way around. If we want a general word for "set" then "selcmi be zi'o" is better than plain "selcmi", which means "thing with members" rather than the (slightly) more general "set". > There's another problem with the "lo'i" definition. Can "lo selcmi be lo >> broda" be any set that has lo broda among its members, or is it the one = and >> only set that has lo broda as its sole members? "cmima" only says that x= 1 >> is/are among the members of x2, does "selcmi" say that its x2 are all th= e >> members of its x1? Open question. >> >> You created a Lojban entry of {selcmi} in jbovlaste: > http://jbovlaste.lojban.org/dict/selcmi > It might have been modified by someone else, and is now defined as follow= s: > {x1 selcmi x2} =3Dca'e {x1 se cmima ro lo me x2 me'u e no lo na me x2} > That is to say, the meaning of {selcmi} is different from {se cmima}, and > {lo selcmi be lo broda} is the one and only set that has lo broda as its > sole members. > Ah, yes, I had forgotten about it. However, I would prefer that the meaning of {selcmi} is the same as {se > cmima}, and that {A cmima A ce B} is implied by {A ce B selcmi A}. > That's implied with either definition. I think you mean the converse: (A cmima A ce B) implies (A ce B selcmi A). In other words, "selcmi" would mean "contains" rather than "is the set of". In that case, {lo selcmi be lo broda} can be any set that has lo broda > among its members. I am willing to add a comment on it, but I'm not sure = if > I should obey the definition of jbovlaste, or rather keep it as an open > question. > Lujvo definitions in jbovlaste are not official, so you can feel free to enter a competing definition. (The original idea was that people would vote for the one they preferred, although that aspect of jbovlaste never really took off.) mu'o mi'e xorxes --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --001a11339a762c9c0304fa3a71d7 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable



On Sun, May 25, 2014 at 6:08 AM, guskant <gusni.kantu@gmail.co= m> wrote:

Le samedi 24 mai 2014 0= 9:45:37 UTC+9, xorxes a =C3=A9crit=C2=A0:

= "lo selcmi be no da" works well as a description of the empty set= in a universe of discourse in which there are only sets. (But then that is= really the only universe of discourse in which one should mention sets at = all, in my opinion.)


{lo selcmi be no da} is a standard definition of "empty set" of = set theory.

Yes, but in set th= eory there are only sets in the universe of discourse. In set theory with u= r-elements, the ur-elements don't have members, so they are "lo se= lcmi be no da", "things with no members", but I don't th= ink they are called empty sets. As far as I'm aware there is only one e= mpty set in set theory, not any number of them.
=C2=A0
In ot= her words, {zo'e noi roda naku zo'u ke'a selcmi da}. We can thi= nk of a universe of discourse in which a spoon satisfies {ke'a selcmi n= o da}, but it means that the spoon is regarded as an empty set in that univ= erse of discourse. An empty set is indeed a kind of set, {lo selcmi}. If we= wanted to imply that a spoon is not a set, we could rather say that a spoo= n satisfies {ke'a selcmi zi'o}, in which the meaning of {selcmi} wa= s changed by {zi'o}.

I think it's the other way aroun= d. If we want a general word for "set" then "selcmi be zi= 9;o" is better than plain "selcmi", which means "thing = with members" rather than the (slightly) more general "set".= =C2=A0
=C2=A0
There'= s another problem with the "lo'i" definition. Can "lo se= lcmi be lo broda" be any set that has lo broda among its members, or i= s it the one and only set that has lo broda as its sole members? "cmim= a" only says that x1 is/are among the members of x2, does "selcmi= " say that its x2 are all the members of its x1? Open question.=

You created a Lojba= n entry of {selcmi} in jbovlaste:
It might have been modified by someone else, and is now defined as fol= lows:
{x1 selcmi x2} =3Dca'e {x1 se cmima ro lo me x2 me'= u e no lo na me x2}=C2=A0
That is to say, the meaning of {selcmi}= is different from {se cmima}, and {lo selcmi be lo broda} is the one and o= nly set that has lo broda as its sole members.

Ah, yes, I had forgotten about= it.=C2=A0

However, I would prefer that the meaning of {selcmi} is the same as {s= e cmima}, and that {A cmima A ce B} is implied by {A ce B selcmi A}.
=

That's implied with either= definition. I think you mean the converse: (A cmima A ce B) implies (A ce = B selcmi A). In other words, "selcmi" would mean "contains&q= uot; rather than "is the set of".=C2=A0

In= that case, {lo selcmi be lo broda} can be any set that has lo broda among = its members. I am willing to add a comment on it, but I'm not sure if I= should obey the definition of jbovlaste, or rather keep it as an open ques= tion.

Lujvo definitions in jbovlaste= are not official, so you can feel free to enter a competing definition. (T= he original idea was that people would vote for the one they preferred, alt= hough that aspect of jbovlaste never really took off.)

mu'o mi'e xorxes=C2=A0

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