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Date: Sun, 25 May 2014 13:19:45 -0400
From: "Bob LeChevalier, President and Founder - LLG" <lojbab@lojban.org>
Organization: The Logical Language Group, Inc.
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Subject: Re: [lojban] Balningau: The Great Update
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On 5/25/2014 7:41 AM, Jonathan Jones wrote:
> I haven't dived very far into this hole, myself, but I have looked into
> the categorization deal a bit.

As have I, more than once.

> For example, there are the "x1 is x2 <metric units> in <measurement
> type> by standard x3" gismu, which, with the exception of {mitre}, have
> the exact same place structure. (Similarly for the non-metric
> measurement gismu.)

The fact that so many look alike reflect my prior analyses.  But you of 
course are missing all the places I added and later deleted in an effort 
to maximize this aspect (the se pilno/tutci/cabra/minji/zukte set, which 
included words that would typically be useful in x1 and x2 of those 
words, occupied me for several months before someone convinced me that I 
was overanalyzing.

Someone else argued that it would be better not to group gismu 
semantically, but rather to group them by number of defined places. 
IIRC, pc has been addressing issues like this since he was editing The 
Loglanist way back in 1975.

> There all the creature gismu, which with some exceptions, are all "x1 is
> a <creature> of species x2".

My work, including the exceptions.

>
> {klama}, {litru}, {muvdu}, and not quite {pluta} differ only in which of
> the places of {klama} they do or do not contain. ({pluta} has an extra
> place for the set of points defining the route, as well as reordering
> the {klama} places it has.)

Again, my work, and that extra place was one reason why pluta exists 
other than as a conversion of the others.  Especially in lujvo-making 
where the person going is usually irrelevant to the route.

> I personally do not think Lojban should ever stop being a prescriptive
> language,

Well, if we can never get the prescription done, it will arguably never 
start being one.

What is most likely is that we will eventually finish something we can 
call the initial/baseline language prescription.  Perhaps thereafter 
someone will constitute a BPFK-like standards group, though if it is to 
be meaningful, membership likely will need to be more formal than BPFK 
membership has been.  Thereafter, any further "prescriptions" will be 
increasingly selected from things demonstrated to work in actual usage, 
and thus arguably will be descriptive rather than prescriptive.  The 
description will of course be treated by many people as having 
prescriptive force, just as major dictionaries have prescriptive force 
in English, even though none of them were intended to be prescriptive.

  and if you want my reasons for it, I direct you to Robin's
> rant. Although I'm unlikely to live long enough to see it, I might be
> persuaded to change my stance if and when a significant community of
> first-language natives of Lojban exist.

 From what I've heard, native Esperanto speakers are not considered more 
expert in the language than non-natives who have spoken the language for 
decades.

> As far as this "endeavor", I would consider this effort to be an
> in-the-works BPFK change proposal, to be potentially reviewed once the
> freeze had been lifted, and nothing more.

If they submit such a change proposal, then the BPFK will presumably 
deal with it, but I had the sense that they were doing so specifically 
in opposition to the procedures in place.  And this is not the first 
time selpa'i has exhibited strong distaste for what you term "the 
established authority".  Nor is he the first to try this sort of stunt.
Luckily the community has largely ignored splinter groups in the past, and
their leaders eventually go away to fight some other battle.

But thanks for your support for the status quo.

lojbab

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