Received: from mail-wi0-f191.google.com ([209.85.212.191]:64730) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1Womg6-0003P1-79 for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Sun, 25 May 2014 21:38:40 -0700 Received: by mail-wi0-f191.google.com with SMTP id r20sf302774wiv.28 for ; Sun, 25 May 2014 21:38:18 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=2SgdY6Mj8k63fUTbwvyV/kpqwHjfi8HAdYX7kMK+8BE=; b=Y8Rgf0mhrM1ckJWfkEJtfLsdhP0eDfo6KsurkFU1UOfM+wNJs0X8h+pNKvvEIfLKD5 hggOhNf1zqFgXU4PrfJ6JmqVh3COnhLjeT4IAM4e2s6SiEbId8H1cGbz4aTiPrKpvd6v p+j0Gs8ePeIhSH38zivpcSwgz465OT5FtHjjl+lk9zZl0k++Wb3w2JyXD5wNvYb+YbAv thE5YPGTr0syartyEf+qERoZ20oekKhl3flQaPDvMK3gtJivFZBfCRXUTx+RJlMwkj1k fCwcg1Y9nUa88Ybexl2FoVLDn+gTbust5lSjhnOC423+VLIN/SSPrGkp1sXEDqqZdOJS WA2g== X-Received: by 10.152.9.194 with SMTP id c2mr474lab.20.1401079098776; Sun, 25 May 2014 21:38:18 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.152.28.101 with SMTP id a5ls393995lah.100.gmail; Sun, 25 May 2014 21:38:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.112.136.229 with SMTP id qd5mr36897lbb.21.1401079097960; Sun, 25 May 2014 21:38:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wg0-x229.google.com (mail-wg0-x229.google.com [2a00:1450:400c:c00::229]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id xk11si405104wib.0.2014.05.25.21.38.17 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Sun, 25 May 2014 21:38:17 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c00::229 as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:400c:c00::229; Received: by mail-wg0-f41.google.com with SMTP id z12so7397613wgg.12 for ; Sun, 25 May 2014 21:38:17 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.180.78.131 with SMTP id b3mr1184721wix.32.1401079097725; Sun, 25 May 2014 21:38:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.194.25.163 with HTTP; Sun, 25 May 2014 21:38:17 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Mon, 26 May 2014 08:38:17 +0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Specifying sumti types: another revision of gimste is complete From: Gleki Arxokuna To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c00::229 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=14dae9cc98f0ec183504fa462582 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam_score: 0.0 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / --14dae9cc98f0ec183504fa462582 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 2014-05-26 3:09 GMT+04:00 Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas : > > On Sun, May 25, 2014 at 11:30 AM, Gleki Arxokuna < > gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote: > >> >> 2014-05-25 18:11 GMT+04:00 Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas : >> > Are (object, event, text) all the types there are? x1 of ckaji can be of >>> any type at all, not just those three. >>> >> >> What other possible types you can imagine? >> > > number, property, du'u... > > I'm not exactly sure how "type", "subtype" and "denotation in the > dictionary" are supposed to interact though. If a place is tagged "person= ", > does that mean that it can't be used to fill a place tagged "agent"? > Obviously that can't be right, "person" and "agent" are compatible. So it= 's > hard to tell to what extent the types are restrictive. > Yes, "type" is what restricts a place, not a subtype. Subtypes are rather hints for newbies of what should go into a place. > >> In fact any time one of the arguments is a property of another argument, >>> there's a good chance that the type of that other argument is dictated = only >>> by the type of the ce'u in the property, This also applies to comparati= ves >>> (zmadu, mleca, dunli, simsa,...) It would be easier to revise the list = if >>> you sort it by type signature rather than just alphabetically. >>> >> >> Sort them by x1 or show the tersumti type for each place in separate >> columns? >> > > It would be nice to have all the gismu where x2 is a property of x1 > together for example, those where x3 is a property of both x1 and x2 > together, those where x2 is a number, those where x2 is the material of x= 1, > and so on. With these type of criteria gismu can be sorted into 20 or so > classes in which all have roughly the same type of place structure. > Well, for now there are 5 "structure" columns but "property" places lost their links to other places. I'll have to prepare more precise signatures. I did that some time in the past but unfortunately I lost the files I > worked with. > I can see that you grouped them into semantic classes. Well, i think i can import my semantic classification. Will it help? > > > >> I don't see why "lo since" couldn't go in the x1 of ckape. >>>>> >>>> Because then we dont know what is the property of {lo since} that make= s >>>> it dangerous. >>>> >>> >>> Surely that can't be the reason. In "lo nu kelci lo fagri cu ckape", ho= w >>> do you know what the property of playing with fire is that makes it >>> dangerous? >>> >> Inject {makau}? >> > > Inject it where? "ckape" tells you that x1 is dangerous to x2, it doesn't > tell you which property of x1 makes it dangerous. You can always ask "lo = nu > ta ckape cu jalge lo nu ta ckaji ma", or "ta ckape ri'a ma" if you want t= o > know wgat makes it dangerous. That goes both for objects and events. Just > because it's an event that is dangerous doesn't mean that you know what > property of the event makes it dangerous. > > > I don't think "group" is a type in this sense at all. A few places do >>> require plural arguments, but most (all?) places allow plural arguments= . >>> This is independent of the type of argument they expect. >>> >> >> Well, "group" is used mostly for species of animal gismu. Any ideas what >> would be the best name for it for newbies? >> > > No, I've never been able to figure out how to use the species places. CLL > suggests Linnaean names, but since I don't know the Linnaean name of > practically any animal and much less plant, I don't really have a use for > those places. > > > What do you think of something like "mi ckire lo cevni lo nu mi ka'e >>>>> viska"? >>>>> >>>> >>> You skipped this one. Can't x3 of ckire be an event? >>> >> >> 1. I don't think so. This implies x3 is independent of x2 >> > > Not really, just because something is not mentioned as part of an event > doesn't mean the event is independent of it. The meaning of "ckire" > requires that x1 believes x2 to be somehow responsible for x3. > > >> 2. Actually I don't separate events and properties. They can often be in >> the same places, I agree that this rule needs further clarification. >> >> >>> >>> >>>> means you want it to be only for abstract cones? Would a traffic cone >>>>> qualify as a konju in your sense? >>>>> >>>> that cone is characterized by two segments such that one has been >>>> revolved around the other one forming the cone. I think we are going t= o >>>> delve into Uqbar now since e.g. a traffic triangle is similarly not re= ally >>>> a triangle and so on meaning that geometrical ideal shapes are impossi= ble >>>> in this real world. >>>> >>> >>> My question is more basic. You decided to move "konju" from the >>> bolci/slanu/... class to the linji/kurfa/... class. konju is not the on= ly >>> word in its class, so if you think it needs to be redefined, shouldn't = all >>> other words in that class be redefined as well? Why just "konju"? >>> >> >> Well, okay I can ignore all non-x1 place of {konju} then but this would >> require discussing tools of describing defining features of all those >> geometric shapes in a separate thread. >> > > Yes, it's better to discuss them as a group rather than each word in > isolation. > > mu'o mi'e xorxes > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --14dae9cc98f0ec183504fa462582 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable



2014-05-26 3:09 GMT+04:00 Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas <= ;jjllambias@gmail= .com>:
=
On Sun, May 25, 2014 at 11:3= 0 AM, Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> w= rote:
=
2014-05-25 18:11 GMT+04:00 Jorge Llamb=C3=AD= as <jjllambias@gmail.com>:=C2=A0
Are (object, event, text) all the types there are? x1 of ckaji can be of a= ny type at all, not just those three.

What other possible types you can= imagine?

num= ber, property, du'u...
=C2=A0
I'm not exactly s= ure how "type", "subtype" and "denotation in the d= ictionary" are supposed to interact though. If a place is tagged "= ;person", does that mean that it can't be used to fill a place tag= ged "agent"? Obviously that can't be right, "person"= ; and "agent" are compatible. So it's hard to tell to what ex= tent the types are restrictive.

Yes, "type" is= what restricts a place, not a subtype. Subtypes are rather hints for newbi= es of what should go into a place.


=C2=A0
In fact any time one of the arguments is a property of another argument, t= here's a good chance that the type of that other argument is dictated o= nly by the type of the ce'u in the property, This also applies to compa= ratives (zmadu, mleca, dunli, simsa,...) It would be easier to revise the l= ist if you sort it by type signature rather than just alphabetically.

Sort them by x1 or= show the tersumti type for each place in separate columns?

It would be nice to have all= the gismu where x2 is a property of x1 together for example, those where x= 3 is a property of both x1 and x2 together, those where x2 is a number, tho= se where x2 is the material of x1, and so on. With these type of criteria g= ismu can be sorted into 20 or so classes in which all have roughly the same= type of place structure.

Well, for now there are = 5 "structure" columns but "property" places lost their = links to other places. I'll have to prepare more precise signatures.

I did that some time in t= he past but unfortunately I lost the files I worked with.=C2=A0

I can see that you group= ed them into semantic classes. Well, =C2=A0i think i can import my semantic= classification. Will it help?
=

=C2=A0
I don't see why "lo since&quo= t; couldn't go in the x1 of ckape.
Because then we dont know what is= the property of {lo since} that makes it dangerous.

Surely that can= 9;t be the reason. In "lo nu kelci lo fagri cu ckape", how do you= know what the property of playing with fire is that makes it dangerous?=C2= =A0
Inject {makau}?
=

=C2=A0

I don't think "group" is a type in this sense at all. A few = places do require plural arguments, but most (all?) places allow plural arg= uments. This is independent of the type of argument they expect.=C2=A0

Well, "group&= quot; is used mostly for species of animal gismu. Any ideas what would be t= he best name for it for newbies?

No, I've never been able to figure out how to use = the species places. CLL suggests Linnaean names, but since I don't know= the Linnaean name of practically any animal and much less plant, I don'= ;t really have a use for those places.=C2=A0
=C2=A0

What do you think of something like "mi ckire lo cevni lo nu mi ka= 9;e viska"?

You skipped this one. Can't x3 of c= kire be an event?

1. I don't think so. This implies x3 is independent of x2

Not really, just because s= omething is not mentioned as part of an event doesn't mean the event is= independent of it. The meaning of "ckire" requires that x1 belie= ves x2 to be somehow responsible for x3.
=C2=A0
2. Actually I don't se= parate events and properties. They can often be in the same places, I agree= that this rule needs further clarification.
=C2=A0
=C2=A0
means you want it to be only for abstract c= ones? Would a traffic cone qualify as a konju in your sense?
that cone is characterized by two segments= such that one has been revolved around the other one forming the cone. I t= hink we are going to delve into Uqbar now since e.g. a traffic triangle is = similarly not really a triangle and so on meaning that geometrical ideal sh= apes are impossible in this real world.

My question is mor= e basic. You decided to move "konju" from the bolci/slanu/... cla= ss to the linji/kurfa/... class. konju is not the only word in its class, s= o if you think it needs to be redefined, shouldn't all other words in t= hat class be redefined as well? Why just "konju"?

Well, okay I can i= gnore all non-x1 place of {konju} then but this would require discussing to= ols of describing defining features of all those geometric shapes in a sepa= rate thread.

Yes, it's bett= er to discuss them as a group rather than each word in isolation.

mu'o mi'e xorxes=C2=A0
<= /div>

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsub= scribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http:= //groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit http= s://groups.google.com/d/optout.
--14dae9cc98f0ec183504fa462582--