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[216.39.63.170]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id if8si1501181pad.2.2014.05.26.07.45.04 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Mon, 26 May 2014 07:45:04 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 216.39.63.170 as permitted sender) client-ip=216.39.63.170; Received: from [216.39.60.172] by nm22.access.bullet.mail.gq1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 26 May 2014 14:41:43 -0000 Received: from [216.39.60.254] by tm8.access.bullet.mail.gq1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 26 May 2014 14:41:43 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1025.access.mail.gq1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 26 May 2014 14:41:43 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 363661.19376.bm@omp1025.access.mail.gq1.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 907 invoked by uid 60001); 26 May 2014 14:41:42 -0000 X-YMail-OSG: 1B_M7scVM1lHt8Y7cQWHiQp96V4Gf32v_XEi_N41ZmsIN4n fKsS08G9Djc0_y3xRLsGMFhtyXiuc2DQUnIVAebdrL_oimwbdmk330HYeMY4 lCBgzKceburA0vB2GkmPSqUu125yb2dhq3Bbf2Is8qeHtWxVEcv_x9GbFBJN 3iGe4lFchB1J7aj3P5wFowKbtG6iT4lTodTNkDxaymufIM7ltgyPgOoT5QBK xRAIXm9ndtnIZjwXel0iylmRPJyZhOFbxV6UBKh.H5RwCvvCv2xd3e6F9u9H VzAGmcfrNGqn8sDbct87GQToY4zkjAhKTXZjCkjdD1XypxKamCEUhuY08kt. 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B2nfsxT0ofGBk61H.BcmLQJ.Oc_HGxxi5SSCYY7ZW4gNZMzB6iw-- Received: from [99.92.109.82] by web181106.mail.ne1.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 26 May 2014 07:41:42 PDT X-Rocket-MIMEInfo: 002.001,VGhhbmtzOyB0aGUgbGFzdCBmZXcgY29tbWVudHMgd2VyZSBqdXN0IHRoZSBhc3Mta2ljayBJIG5lZWRlZC4KWW91J2QgdGhpbmsgdGhhdCwgYWZ0ZXIgNDAgeWVhcnMgb3Igc28sIEknZCBoYXZlIG15IGhldXJpc3RpY3Mgc2VwYXJhdGVkIGZyb20gbXkgbWV0YXBoeXNpY3MsIHNlcGFyYXRlZCBmcm9tIG15IHNlbWFudGljcywgYnV0IGFwcGFyZW50bHkgbm90LiBJIHRoaW5rIEkndmUgZ290IGl0IGZvciBub3csIHRob3VnaC4gwqBCdXQgbm93IEknbSBoYXZpbmcgcHJvYmxlbSB3aXRoIHRoZSBub3Rpb24gb2YBMAEBAQE- X-Mailer: YahooMailWebService/0.8.188.663 References: <1400965718.28402.YahooMailNeo@web181106.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <53810CB9.1000601@gmx.de> <1400969470.46249.YahooMailNeo@web181101.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1401115302.80629.YahooMailNeo@web181106.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 26 May 2014 07:41:42 -0700 (PDT) From: "'John E Clifford' via lojban" Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] lo broda cu broda (was Baliningau) To: "lojban@googlegroups.com" In-Reply-To: <1400969470.46249.YahooMailNeo@web181101.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 216.39.63.170 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass header.i=@yahoo.com; dmarc=pass (p=REJECT dis=NONE) header.from=yahoo.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Original-From: John E Clifford Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="-910415156-1180350424-1401115302=:80629" X-Spam-Score: -0.1 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.1 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / ---910415156-1180350424-1401115302=:80629 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks; the last few comments were just the ass-kick I needed. You'd think that, after 40 years or so, I'd have my heuristics separated fr= om my metaphysics, separated from my semantics, but apparently not. I think= I've got it for now, though. =A0But now I'm having problem with the notion= of an individual (which was needed why?) , since even the relativized defi= nition "broda no part of which is a broda" will always work. =A0I appears t= o be a primitive term, if needed at all. On Saturday, May 24, 2014 5:11 PM, 'John E Clifford' via lojban wrote: =20 As i said, the problems do not depend upon how the extensions of predicates= are set up, although your way of putting it makes matters even slightly mo= re paradoxical sounding. =A0Clearly, within a given universe all and only b= rodas are brodas; whatever the relationship between different brodas may be= varies from one set to another: parts of djacu are djacu, parts of cifno m= ay not be (usually are not, in fact) and so on. Oc ourse, the notion of a v= roda that is not a full broda just does not make sense in any uiniverse (th= ough what one universe would consider not a full broda may be one in anothe= r (English lions might include things that are not cifno, say). =A0The poin= t of the case was simply that, in solving the gruesome mess (you may have t= o have been there) about masses and the like, the cheapest solution was to = allow that lo broda might contain no-broda broda bits (and, indeed, not jus= t masses, as it turned out: when I see a rabbit, I actually SEE only rabbit bits, for example. =A0Gavagai!). =A0So all the criteria just don't = enter the question at all (assuming we want to be able to count brodas).=A0 Sapir-Whorf lives and cultural neutrality is dead! =A0The whole point (well= , not the whole, but the only interesting part) of cultural neutrality and = all was that Lojban was not to specify how reality was cut up but to work e= qually well however you wanted to slice it. This took the form of allowing = any view to work and not to be required and the metaphysical (if you will) = side of xorlo (whatever all that was that was not about quantifiers with 'l= o') was the way to achieving that. =A0Without -- as your statement suggests= -- claiming that there is a unique world which can be sliced in different = ways (with the hidden assumptions that there really is a right one -- that'= s in Whorf, too, but with a different answer). =A0The goal in Lojban (well,= iot was at one time for some Lojbanists) is just that all these various wo= rlds are one one world and we can refer to any one them any time within our= one language, or we can say things that do not in any way specify which one -- and without having to stop and set up a new UD to continue. = =A0To be sure, the more or less official way Lojban does it is one choice, = but it works and attempts to it from other bases pretty much failed within = the framework of FOPL, which is inherently chunky (or Aristotelian, which s= ounds better). None of which has anything to do with the original issue, of course. On Saturday, May 24, 2014 4:18 PM, selpa'i wrote: =20 la .pycyn. cu cusku di'e > As noted, the problem remains whatever the universe assigns to 'broda'. >=A0 If every part of each broda is a broda, then there are no (even > relative) individuals to enumerate.=A0 If there are ultimate brodas then > the full generality which 'lo' was to represent is unrealized and we are > thrown back into muddled world of Mr. Broda and Brodatude and myopic > singulars, with even less support than we had before. But not every part of each broda is a broda in every universe, and=20 neither do all universes consider only full broda as a broda. It always=20 depends on which differentiation criteria are applied to the world in=20 each situation. Mr. Broda is just one way of slicing up the world into referents. There,=20 all broda are considered one and the same (or you could say there is=20 only one broda and then you get to myopic singulars). In another universe, all parts of a missing body could be considered=20 referents of the missing John Smith which police are trying to find. In yet another universe, what you would think of as being one thing can=20 be split into several separated only by their position in time. E.g.=20 each night's moon is a new one. "tonight's moon is prettier than last=20 night's moon". Each situation warrants a new set of differentiation criteria and based=20 on those we get different possible referents which not only {lo} can=20 refer to, but also {le} and {la} and {da}. mi'e la selpa'i mu'o --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. ---910415156-1180350424-1401115302=:80629 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thanks; the last few comments were just the ass-ki= ck I needed.
You'd think that, after 40 years or so, I'd have my heuristics separated= from my metaphysics, separated from my semantics, but apparently not. I th= ink I've got it for now, though.  But now I'm having problem with the = notion of an individual (which was needed why?) , since even the relativize= d definition "broda no part of which is a broda" will always work.  I = appears to be a primitive term, if needed at all.


On Saturday, May 24, 2014 5:11 PM, 'John E C= lifford' via lojban <lojban@googlegroups.com> wrote:


=
As i said, the problems do not= depend upon how the extensions of predicates are set up, although your way= of putting it makes matters even slightly more paradoxical sounding.  = ;Clearly, within a given universe all and only brodas are brodas; whatever = the relationship between different brodas may be varies from one set to anothe= r: parts of djacu are djacu, parts of cifno may not be (usually are not, in= fact) and so on. Oc ourse, the notion of a vroda that is not a full broda = just does not make sense in any uiniverse (though what one universe would c= onsider not a full broda may be one in another (English lions might include= things that are not cifno, say).  The point of the case was simply th= at, in solving the gruesome mess (you may have to have been there) about ma= sses and the like, the cheapest solution was to allow that lo broda might contain no-br= oda broda bits (and, indeed, not just masses, as it turned out: when I see = a rabbit, I actually SEE only rabbit bits, for example.  Gavagai!). &n= bsp;So all the criteria just don't enter the question at all (assuming we w= ant to be able to count brodas). 

Sapir-Whorf lives and cultural neutr= ality is dead!  The whole point (well, not the whole, but the only int= eresting part) of cultural neutrality and all was that Lojban was not to specify how reality was cut up but to work equally well however you wanted to slice it= . This took the form o= f allowing any view to work and not to be required and the metaphysical (if= you will) side of xorlo (whatever all that was that was not about quantifi= ers with 'lo') was the way to achieving that.  Without -- as your stat= ement suggests -- claiming that there is a unique world which can be sliced= in different ways (with the hidden assumptions that there really is a righ= t one -- that's in Whorf, too, but with a different answer).  The goal= in Lojban (well, iot was at one time for some Lojbanists) is just that all= these various worlds are one one world and we can refer to any one them an= y time within our one language, or we can say things that do not in any way= specify which one -- and without having to stop and set up a new UD to con= tinue.  To be sure, the more or less official way Lojban does it is one choice, but it works and attempts to it from other bases pretty muc= h failed within the framework of FOPL, which is inherently chunky (or Arist= otelian, which sounds better).

None of which has anything to do with t= he original issue, of course.

=

=
On Saturday, May 24, 2014 4:18 PM, selpa'i <seladwa@gmx= .de> wrote:


la .pycyn. cu cus= ku di'e
> As noted, the problem remains whatever the u= niverse assigns to 'broda'.
>  If every part of = each broda is a broda, then there are no (even
> relative) individuals to enumerate.&nb= sp; If there are ultimate brodas then
> the full gener= ality which 'lo' was to represent is unrealized and we are
> thrown back into muddled worl= d of Mr. Broda and Brodatude and myopic
> singulars, w= ith even less support than we had before.

But not every part of each broda is a broda in every universe, and
neither do all universes consider only full broda as a broda= . It always
depends on which differentiation criteria ar= e applied to the world in
each situation.

Mr. Broda is just one way of slicing up the world in= to referents. There,
all broda are considered one and th= e same (or you could say there is
only one broda and the= n you get to myopic singulars).

In ano= ther universe, all parts of a missing body could be considered
referents of the missing John Smith which police are trying to find.=

In yet another universe, what you would think of as being o= ne thing can
be split into several separated only by the= ir position in time. E.g.
each night's moon is a new one= . "tonight's moon is prettier than last
night's moon".
Each situation warrants a new set of di= fferentiation criteria and based
on those we get differe= nt possible referents which not only {lo} can
refer to, = but also {le} and {la} and {da}.

mi'e = la selpa'i mu'o

--
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Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/loj= ban.
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=


--
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To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsub= scribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
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