Received: from mail-vc0-f187.google.com ([209.85.220.187]:64997) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1Wq17a-0001AF-Ag for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Thu, 29 May 2014 07:16:12 -0700 Received: by mail-vc0-f187.google.com with SMTP id hy4sf133620vcb.4 for ; Thu, 29 May 2014 07:15:47 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject:mime-version :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=G2UoRzMe7nIdd2JM3F6vkU4dEcOg3gIQjMhGhnBkaAU=; b=Qp5bAGw7WWRfaO4r81kA5AoiZ90rHdW8j8aMYppzDHukNszuhFffAtTZZrfpVVdeOM ZUAftrI2r9D/s9TSS3nKxwhEOBthnEnq6Kz8H0rkdk22OM6skY7Ne5ZbSRhw/qEV+hI5 D9vhfd0QvKuuTY+ypAYzpbVOxw09rLuQ4W0rDS7cvxrN1faB+7Mp9FNp8ODozXsjlt+s Ew0kAGG4KGJVCROBqRJkwnXUVhy+aW4cEHhrdHf7EwxKMtKw0G8PCEt7mnd+lsZbR699 gfKkuBrvAm+ufrgLobd41oGhtvDOfG2rRdJYwjreWutkcFeRdavry5UuRnPpmQ2U4sOb NHoQ== X-Received: by 10.140.106.67 with SMTP id d61mr2744qgf.41.1401372947823; Thu, 29 May 2014 07:15:47 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.140.98.52 with SMTP id n49ls542269qge.29.gmail; Thu, 29 May 2014 07:15:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.58.106.75 with SMTP id gs11mr3219969veb.18.1401372947477; Thu, 29 May 2014 07:15:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.224.189.8 with SMTP id dc8msqab; Wed, 28 May 2014 16:46:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.140.27.40 with SMTP id 37mr59425qgw.24.1401320815224; Wed, 28 May 2014 16:46:55 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 28 May 2014 16:46:54 -0700 (PDT) From: curtis.w.franks@gmail.com To: lojban@googlegroups.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Subject: [lojban] Re: Geometry shapes categorization MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: curtiswfranks@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_2674_6855512.1401320814405" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam_score: 0.0 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / ------=_Part_2674_6855512.1401320814405 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hodge-Podge of Points: - Did you include: *kruvi, plita, sirji* (especially in contrast with=20 *linji*; what are the differences between these two words (how does one= =20 say =E2=80=9Cgeodesic=E2=80=9D?)), *mokca, panra, cimde*? *plita* and *k= arda/tapla* (if=20 the material terbri is erased) are geometric too. - We probably want to be able to talk about tilings.=20 - We also lack an easy way to specify the metric of the space. - I have been wanting to introduce Schl=C3=A4ffi symbols in Lojban. - One thing that one must be careful of in Lojban is distinguishing=20 between measures and objects. This comes up when one says in English "wi= th=20 diameter ____" or "with angle ____". A diameter is a line. So, =E2=80= =9Cwith=20 diameter L=E2=80=9D (where L is defined to be some line) is proper (and = follows the=20 definition). On the other hand, =E2=80=9Cwith diameter 1 (unit)=E2=80=9D= is abusive and=20 wrong: it should be =E2=80=9Cwith diameter measuring 1 unit=E2=80=9D. Li= kewise for angles=20 and their measures. I try to be clear in English; Lojban needs to separa= te=20 the two too. I propose that lujvo or constructs with *merli* are=20 employed for the measures (the accuracy terbri thereof is sort of annoyi= ng=20 in some situations because in mathematical contexts, the accuracy is 1, = but=20 that could probably be covered in the elliptical); the objects should be= =20 referenced by the gismu. - How does one distinguish between a loop (closed, connected, simple=20 (Jordan) curve), a spiral, a ring/annulus, a torus, an ellipse, a sphere= , a=20 helix, and a whole bunch of related concepts? We have words only for a f= ew=20 of them, with a lot of overlap. - Is there any implicit assumption that *cukla/bolci*-style roundness= =20 implies convexity and connectedness? A simple, closed, connected (Jorda= n)=20 curve (=3D loop?) is basically a circle, but is more generalized in the = sense=20 that it can be =E2=80=9Cvariably curvy=E2=80=9D. =20 =20 General Problems: 1) gismu list terbri for material/composition. Examples: *bolci, karda,=20 tapla*. 2) Many gismu improperly distinguish between volumes and surfaces. Either= =20 we should define (preferably all) geometric words to be surfaces and=20 reference their encompassed regions by lujvo with =E2=80=9Carea=E2=80=9D/*c= anlu* (example:=20 *bolci* means =E2=80=9Csphere=E2=80=9D, *bolca=E2=80=99u* means =E2=80=9Cba= ll=E2=80=9D), or we should define=20 (preferably all) geometric words to be the encompassed volume and specify= =20 the boundary/surface by lujvo with perhaps *korbi* (example: *bolci* means= =20 =E2=80=9Cball=E2=80=9D, *bolkoi* means =E2=80=9Csphere=E2=80=9D). Although,= one must note that the=20 encompassed (interior) region can depend on interpret in some metrics; a=20 small loop on the ground on Earth (an oblate ellipsoidal surface) may be=20 determined to have a small area or a large one- and even the shape of that= =20 area depends on this interpretation. =20 An Off-Topic Problem for Math in Lojban: - There is no general term for =E2=80=9Cevaluate=E2=80=9D (as of, say, a= function at a=20 particular input value). =20 --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. ------=_Part_2674_6855512.1401320814405 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hodge-Podge of Points:

  • Did you include: kruvi, plita, sirji (especially in contrast with linji; what are the differences between these two words (how does one say =E2=80=9Cgeodesic=E2=80=9D?)), mokca, panra, cimde? plita and karda/tapla (if the material terbri is erased) are geometric too.
    • We probably want= to be able to talk about tilings.
  • We also l= ack an easy way to specify the metric of the space.
  • I have been wanting to introduce Schl=C3=A4ffi symbols in Lojban.
  • One thing that one must = be careful of in Lojban is distinguishing between measures and objects. This comes up when one says in English "with diameter= ____" or "with angle ____".  A diameter is a line. So, =E2=80=9Cwith = diameter L=E2=80=9D (where L is defined to be some line) is proper (and follows the definition). On the oth= er hand, =E2=80=9Cwith diameter 1 (unit)=E2=80=9D is abusive and wrong: it sho= uld be =E2=80=9Cwith diameter measuring 1 unit=E2=80=9D. Likewise for angles and their measures.= I try to be clear in English; Lojban needs to separate the two too. I propose that lujv= o or constructs with merli are employed for the measures (the accuracy terbri thereof is sort of annoying in some situations because in mathematical contexts, the accuracy is 1, but that co= uld probably be covered in the elliptical); the objects should be referenced by= the gismu.
  •  How does = one distinguish between a loop (closed, connected, simple (Jordan) curve), a sp= iral, a ring/annulus, a torus, an ellipse, a sphere, a helix, and a whole bunch o= f related concepts? We have words only for a few of them, with a lot of overl= ap.
  •  Is there any implicit assumption that cukla/bolci-style roundness implies convexity and connectedness?  A simple, closed, connected (Jordan) curve (=3D loop?) is basically a circle, but is more generalized in the sense that it can be =E2=80=9Cvariab= ly curvy=E2=80=9D.

 

General Problems:

1) gismu list terbri for materia= l/composition. Examples: bolci, karda, tapla.

2) Many gismu improperly disting= uish between volumes and surfaces.  Either we should define (preferably all) geometric words to be surfaces and reference their encompassed regions by lujvo with =E2=80=9Carea=E2=80=9D/canlu (example: bolci means =E2=80=9Csphere=E2=80=9D, bolca=E2=80=99u means =E2=80=9Cball=E2=80=9D), or we should define (preferably all) geometric words to be the encompassed volume and specify the boundary/surface by lujvo with perhaps korbi (example: <= i>bolci means =E2=80=9Cball=E2=80=9D, bolkoi means =E2=80=9Csphere=E2=80=9D)= . Although, one must note that the encompassed (interior) region can depend o= n interpret in some metrics; a small loop on the ground on Earth (an oblate ellipsoidal surface) may be determined to have a small area or a large one-= and even the shape of that area depends on this interpretation.

 

An Off-Topic Problem for Math in Lojban:

  • There is no general term for =E2=80=9Cevalua= te=E2=80=9D (as of, say, a function at a particular input value).

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