Date: Thu, 29 May 2014 15:42:05 -0700 (PDT)
From: guskant <gusni.kantu@gmail.com>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
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Subject: Re: [lojban] Individuals and xorlo
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Le jeudi 29 mai 2014 02:14:50 UTC+9, Martin Bays a =C3=A9crit :
>
> * Tuesday, 2014-05-27 at 19:21 -0700 - guskant <gusni...@gmail.com=20
> <javascript:>>:=20
>
> > Regarding {zo'e} as the outmost constant in a prenex of a statement is =
a=20
> > special case of {zo'e} as Skolem functions. As for the example=20
> >=20
> > {ro da broda lo brode},=20
> > that is=20
> > Ax B(x,f(x)),=20
> >=20
> > it says nothing about whether {lo brode} as a Skolem function f(x) is=
=20
> > constant for all x or not. That is to say, xorlo allows both=20
> > interpretations "EYAx B(x,Y)" and "AxEY B(x,Y)" as a statement before=
=20
> > Skolemization, while CLL-lo restricts the interpretation to "AxEy=20
> B(x,y)"=20
> > (small y is a singular variable).=20
>
> Assuming I understand you correctly as wanting {lo broda se broda ro da}=
=20
> to have only the "EYAx" interpretation, this is in direct conflict with=
=20
> the gadri BPFK section, which says=20
> "Any term without an explicit outer quantifier is a constant, i.e. not=20
> a quantified term. This means that it refers to one or more individuals,=
=20
> and changing the order in which the constant term appears with respect=20
> to a negation or with respect to a quantified term will not change the=20
> meaning of the sentence.".=20
>
>
=20

Then your assumption is false. I don't want {lo broda cu se broda ro da} to=
=20
have only "EYAx B(x,Y)" interpretation. See the table at=20
http://guskant.github.io/lojbo/skolem.png


Le jeudi 29 mai 2014 05:21:56 UTC+9, xorxes a =C3=A9crit :
>
>
> On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 2:14 PM, Martin Bays <mb...@sdf.org> wrote:
>
>>
>> The statement "there exists a function f(x) such that for all x,
>> P(x,f(x))" is logically equivalent to "for all x, there exists y such
>> that P(x,y)".=20
>
>
> There is, however, a difference between these two metalinguistic=20
> statements:
>
> "There exists a function f(x) such that the speaker of the sentence is=20
> claiming that for all x, P(x, f(x))" and  "the speaker of the sentence is=
=20
> claiming that there exists a function f(x) such that for all x, P(x, f(x)=
".
>
> CLL-lo uses the second interpretation when interpreting such sentences.
>
>
mi'usai
=20

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><br>Le jeudi 29 mai 2014 02:14:50 UTC+9, Martin Bays a=
 =C3=A9crit&nbsp;:<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;marg=
in-left: 0.8ex;border-left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;">* Tuesday, 2=
014-05-27 at 19:21 -0700 - guskant &lt;<a href=3D"javascript:" target=3D"_b=
lank" gdf-obfuscated-mailto=3D"JYJxO1zIhOsJ" onmousedown=3D"this.href=3D'ja=
vascript:';return true;" onclick=3D"this.href=3D'javascript:';return true;"=
>gusni...@gmail.com</a>&gt;:
<br><br>&gt; Regarding {zo'e} as the outmost constant in a prenex of a stat=
ement is a=20
<br>&gt; special case of {zo'e} as Skolem functions. As for the example
<br>&gt;=20
<br>&gt; {ro da broda lo brode},
<br>&gt; that is=20
<br>&gt; Ax B(x,f(x)),
<br>&gt;=20
<br>&gt; it says nothing about whether {lo brode} as a Skolem function f(x)=
 is=20
<br>&gt; constant for all x or not. That is to say, xorlo allows both=20
<br>&gt; interpretations "EYAx B(x,Y)" and "AxEY B(x,Y)" as a statement bef=
ore=20
<br>&gt; Skolemization, while CLL-lo restricts the interpretation to "AxEy =
B(x,y)"=20
<br>&gt; (small y is a singular variable).
<br>
<br>Assuming I understand you correctly as wanting {lo broda se broda ro da=
}
<br>to have only the "EYAx" interpretation, this is in direct conflict with
<br>the gadri BPFK section, which says
<br>"Any term without an explicit outer quantifier is a constant, i.e. not
<br>a quantified term. This means that it refers to one or more individuals=
,
<br>and changing the order in which the constant term appears with respect
<br>to a negation or with respect to a quantified term will not change the
<br>meaning of the sentence.".
<br>
<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>&nbsp;</div><div><br></div><div>Then y=
our assumption is false. I don't want {lo broda cu se broda ro da} to have =
only "EYAx B(x,Y)" interpretation. See the table at&nbsp;</div><div>http://=
guskant.github.io/lojbo/skolem.png</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>=
<br><br>Le jeudi 29 mai 2014 05:21:56 UTC+9, xorxes a =C3=A9crit&nbsp;:<blo=
ckquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; border-le=
ft-width: 1px; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-style: so=
lid; padding-left: 1ex;"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div><div class=3D"gmail_quot=
e">On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 2:14 PM, Martin Bays&nbsp;<span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;=
<a target=3D"_blank" gdf-obfuscated-mailto=3D"9GLco0IufhIJ" style=3D"color:=
 rgb(102, 17, 204);">mb...@sdf.org</a>&gt;</span>&nbsp;wrote:<br><blockquot=
e class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; border-left-wid=
th: 1px; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-style: solid; p=
adding-left: 1ex;"><div><br></div>The statement "there exists a function f(=
x) such that for all x,<br>P(x,f(x))" is logically equivalent to "for all x=
, there exists y such<br>that P(x,y)".&nbsp;</blockquote><div><br></div><di=
v>There is, however, a difference between these two metalinguistic statemen=
ts:</div><div><br></div><div>"There exists a function f(x) such that the sp=
eaker of the sentence is claiming that for all x, P(x, f(x))" and &nbsp;"th=
e speaker of the sentence is claiming that there exists a function f(x) suc=
h that for all x, P(x, f(x)".</div><div><br></div><div>CLL-lo uses the seco=
nd interpretation when interpreting such sentences.</div><div><br></div></d=
iv></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>mi'usai</div><div>&nbsp;</d=
iv></div></div>

<p></p>

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