Received: from mail-la0-f61.google.com ([209.85.215.61]:49809) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1WqdJp-0006OU-Uk for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Sat, 31 May 2014 00:03:18 -0700 Received: by mail-la0-f61.google.com with SMTP id hr17sf258239lab.26 for ; Sat, 31 May 2014 00:02:58 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=bFw6ze6WB+OJcTRdG3mXQH+xn0UQBDEbiRCDbSn2DPI=; b=rtlFOX6XCPyPUw0iZOCaE8hQq4pj/6YRhIXplPrFde6/WDD+XfHpculu7bxTQePGPH B6SytW6uhozamtQJP2bav7cu0btdmVsiQtKElOBxdBUJVguIP0gWbybIdt+wZF1vKULa A0DkPHbWNDWPVNGEeQVU3eZY5hPU45E7BzCGv6Lw48NmgVDT+pZMX2Q4smV54frQu1v2 FSpvZhIGTWSsRVhx1NZtCPUJhLVyWmhcbFj7Qxe75x5GZygFj139YB43pqv44X0jsmc1 yA26FvO+vvy5adP6NwUqcKwgUbQw4MYDKqQP3FriuihNxmZ2VDGV04mldofx1VpLiw9L dOLg== X-Received: by 10.152.26.129 with SMTP id l1mr52lag.38.1401519778232; Sat, 31 May 2014 00:02:58 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.152.36.227 with SMTP id t3ls248944laj.11.gmail; Sat, 31 May 2014 00:02:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.112.73.232 with SMTP id o8mr1885413lbv.0.1401519777416; Sat, 31 May 2014 00:02:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wi0-x231.google.com (mail-wi0-x231.google.com [2a00:1450:400c:c05::231]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id xk11si194128wib.0.2014.05.31.00.02.57 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Sat, 31 May 2014 00:02:57 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c05::231 as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:400c:c05::231; Received: by mail-wi0-x231.google.com with SMTP id f8so2127848wiw.16 for ; Sat, 31 May 2014 00:02:57 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.194.186.210 with SMTP id fm18mr29417522wjc.67.1401519777268; Sat, 31 May 2014 00:02:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.194.25.163 with HTTP; Sat, 31 May 2014 00:02:57 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sat, 31 May 2014 11:02:57 +0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Specifying sumti types: another revision of gimste is complete From: Gleki Arxokuna To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c05::231 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=e89a8f234449784aa604faacc0f9 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam_score: 0.0 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / --e89a8f234449784aa604faacc0f9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I added my semantic categorization to the sheet. It was created long long ago and wasn't meant to be used with tesumti interactions table. So in case there are inconsistencies you are free to correct it. Also filters are now shown in column headers so you can quickly show only rows with necessary values in a chosen column. E.g. click on filter in "klesi 2", click on "clear" and then select "Location and direction". This will show you only the following rows: "jibni,zvati,darno,lamji,jbini,crane,diklo,nenri,ragve,sivni,mokca,gubni,fa= rna,bartu,berti,cnita,cpana,dandu,dizlo,galtu,gapru,jorne,midju,mipri,pencu= ,pinta,pritu,sanli,snanu,sraji,sruri,stici,stuna,stuzi,trixe,vreta,zunle,zu= tse,mlana" To change back to showing the whole gimste again click on that filter and choose "Select all". Quite handy provided that semantic categorization has no flaws. 2014-05-31 2:00 GMT+04:00 Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas : > > > > On Fri, May 30, 2014 at 7:22 AM, Gleki Arxokuna < > gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote: > >> okay, everything fixed acc. to your suggestions. >> >> > I still see issues on gismu with properties. For example, "jibni" has x2 > (same type as x1), but "darno" has x2 (object). I agree that the x2 has t= o > be of the same type as x1 in these but then objects and events must share > the same type (spatio-temporal entities), since events can be close to > objects in position. > Two options: 1. Split the definition into: "x1 (event,object) is near or close to x2 (event, object) in x3 (property); x1 (number, abstraction) is near or close to x2 (same type as x1) in x3 (property)" This will quickly make definitions bulky. On the other hand there are not so many space gismu. 2. Make objects and events one type which will lead to {lo mlatu ka'e fasnu}. Any other ideas? I think all the comparatives should have x2 same type as x1, they must be > things that can have the same property. Same goes for klesi, jibni and > others. > > Is the x2 of porsi an assertion, or should it be a (transitive, > antisymmetric, total) binary relation? I think "porsi" works something li= ke > "li pa ce'o li re ce'o li ci cu porsi lo ka ce'u mleca ce'u" > It doesn't contradict that porsi2 is an assertion since {ka} is a subclass of {du'u} but I added your example to the sheet (very last columns) until a better glossing of this place is found. > > What's the difference between a property and an aspect? ("Aspect" comes i= n > handy to cluster al the cultural words together when sorting, but does it > mean anything different from "property"?) > No. May be I should remove it since they can be shown by selecting in "klesi 2" only: Continents Culture. Nationalities Culture. Religion Culture. Languages > For mupli you have "x2 (property of x2)". mupli/fadni/traji/cnano/rirci > should have the same for x3, and it should be the same type as x1 (a grou= p > of that type). If you have x3 as a set, then property x2 is not a propert= y > of x3, but a property of the members of x3. > Fixed. I moved all of them to "General =3D>Set structure" class, however, steci should probably also belong to them. as well as some other gismu from "Groups & parts" class. For future considerations: "General comparisons" class might also intersect with them and thus needs rearranging. > And let's drop x3 and x4 of girzu! > done. > > mu'o mi'e xorxes > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --e89a8f234449784aa604faacc0f9 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I added my semantic categorizat= ion to the sheet. It was created long long ago and wasn't meant to be u= sed with tesumti interactions table. So in case there are inconsistencies y= ou are free to correct it.

Also filter= s are now shown in column headers so you can quickly show only rows with ne= cessary values in a chosen column. E.g. click on filter in "klesi 2&qu= ot;, click on "clear" and then select "Location and directio= n". This will show you only the following rows:

"jibni,zvati,darno,lamji,jbini,crane,diklo,nenri,ragve,sivni,mokca= ,gubni,farna,bartu,berti,cnita,cpana,dandu,dizlo,galtu,gapru,jorne,midju,mi= pri,pencu,pinta,pritu,sanli,snanu,sraji,sruri,stici,stuna,stuzi,trixe,vreta= ,zunle,zutse,mlana"

To change b= ack to showing the whole gimste again click on that filter and choose "= ;Select all".

Quite handy provided that semantic categorization= has no flaws.

2014-05-31 2:00 GMT+04:00 Jorge Llamb=C3=ADa= s <jjllambias@gmail.com>:



On Fri, May 30, 2014 at 7:22 AM, Gleki Arxokuna <gle= ki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote:
okay, everything fixed acc. to your sugge= stions.


I still see issues on gismu with properties. For example, "jibni"= ; has x2 (same type as x1), but "darno" has x2 (object). I agree = that the x2 has to be of the same type as x1 in these but then objects and = events must share the same type (spatio-temporal entities), since events ca= n be close to objects in position.

Two options:
1= . Split the definition into:
"x1 (event,object) is near or close t= o x2 (event, object) in x3 (property);=C2=A0x1 (number, abstraction) is nea= r or close to x2 (same type as x1) in x3 (property)"

This will quickly make definitions bulky. On the other = hand there are not so many space gismu.

2. Make ob= jects and events one type which will lead to {lo mlatu ka'e fasnu}.

Any other ideas?

I think all the= comparatives should have x2 same type as x1, they must be things that can = have the same property. Same goes for klesi, jibni and others.

Is the x2 of porsi an assertion, or should it be a (tra= nsitive, antisymmetric, total) binary relation? I think "porsi" w= orks something like "li pa ce'o li re ce'o li ci cu porsi lo k= a ce'u mleca ce'u"=C2=A0
It doesn't contradict that porsi2 i= s an assertion since {ka} is a subclass of {du'u} but I added your exam= ple to the sheet (very last columns) until a better glossing of this place = is found.
=C2=A0

What's the difference between a property and an asp= ect? ("Aspect" comes in handy to cluster al the cultural words to= gether when sorting, but does it mean anything different from "propert= y"?)

No. May be I should remo= ve it since they can be shown by selecting in "klesi 2" only:
Continents
Culture. Nationalities
Culture. Religion
Culture. Languages


For mupli you have "x2= (property of x2)". mupli/fadni/tr= aji/cnano/rirci should have the same for x3, and it should be the same type= as x1 (a group of that type). If you have x3 as a set, then property x2 is= not a property of x3, but a property of the members of x3.=C2=A0

Fixed. I moved all of them to "= ;General =3D>Set structure" class, however, steci should probably a= lso belong to them.
as well as some other gismu from "Groups= & parts" class.

For future considerations: "General comparisons" class might = also intersect with them and thus needs rearranging.


And let's drop x3 and x4 of girzu!

done.
=C2=A0

mu'o mi'e xorxes

--
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Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
=C2=A0

--
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To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsub= scribe@googlegroups.com.
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For more options, visit http= s://groups.google.com/d/optout.
--e89a8f234449784aa604faacc0f9--