Received: from mail-wi0-f186.google.com ([209.85.212.186]:46658) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1WqlBx-0003LL-P3 for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Sat, 31 May 2014 08:27:39 -0700 Received: by mail-wi0-f186.google.com with SMTP id hi2sf219835wib.13 for ; Sat, 31 May 2014 08:27:22 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=PQKl4HtMy7lnLvV+8881JmRxoQBYpLKCnSsDw3oA8Fk=; b=t7DllU/DOC7hpNyX51BA+sKXqPYjpNLki7xi/hXJ9DVq8seWDF8CqDreuj+E5hM0km AbWagApLGG63QrFDmh4oEiHIeUZkSMy6RtRYJ0EMx5J4Qe6fBmaimyEhTcrlW2gElRoV Qh5Gk8vUHAYNhcftJR27rktnmmlLmmbsIeWOJMsgJXDjhq2m3OhpeL7LvRf7RWwFu5Rf sKxWjNvVQoghVjQJfB/Zb4P6YrD9xR95b6Zn8rCPw9FQNo3sbi0CxLaxnFKPDy2Z2zVc Jc8OKCwOSA6e239J8vQG4BEDj8e8ffhzy3UDyFb+PFjRlIAslJJE6S/h3gwMU7fzF7zh IycA== X-Received: by 10.180.109.17 with SMTP id ho17mr8412wib.18.1401550042474; Sat, 31 May 2014 08:27:22 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.180.189.208 with SMTP id gk16ls218362wic.32.gmail; Sat, 31 May 2014 08:27:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.181.13.196 with SMTP id fa4mr332753wid.6.1401550041933; Sat, 31 May 2014 08:27:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wi0-x234.google.com (mail-wi0-x234.google.com [2a00:1450:400c:c05::234]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id xk11si241188wib.0.2014.05.31.08.27.21 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Sat, 31 May 2014 08:27:21 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c05::234 as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:400c:c05::234; Received: by mail-wi0-x234.google.com with SMTP id hi2so2557923wib.1 for ; Sat, 31 May 2014 08:27:21 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.194.248.130 with SMTP id ym2mr33615392wjc.88.1401550041840; Sat, 31 May 2014 08:27:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.194.25.163 with HTTP; Sat, 31 May 2014 08:27:21 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sat, 31 May 2014 19:27:21 +0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Specifying sumti types: another revision of gimste is complete From: Gleki Arxokuna To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c05::234 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=089e013d144261022704fab3ccb5 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam_score: 0.0 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / --089e013d144261022704fab3ccb5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 2014-05-31 18:48 GMT+04:00 Gleki Arxokuna : > > > > 2014-05-31 18:27 GMT+04:00 Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas : > > >> >> >> On Sat, May 31, 2014 at 4:02 AM, Gleki Arxokuna < >> gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> I added my semantic categorization to the sheet. It was created long >>> long ago and wasn't meant to be used with tesumti interactions table. S= o in >>> case there are inconsistencies you are free to correct it. >>> >>> Also filters are now shown in column headers so you can quickly show >>> only rows with necessary values in a chosen column. >>> >> >> That's useful. You have 7 gismu that don't start the x2 column with "x2"= , >> 8 that don't start the x3 column with "x3", 2 for x4 and 1 for x5. >> > > I will check them when others leave the sheet so that I can make > corrections without disturbing anyone. > Corrections made. > > >> I still see issues on gismu with properties. For example, "jibni" has >>>> x2 (same type as x1), but "darno" has x2 (object). I agree that the x2= has >>>> to be of the same type as x1 in these but then objects and events must >>>> share the same type (spatio-temporal entities), since events can be cl= ose >>>> to objects in position. >>>> >>> >>> Two options: >>> 1. Split the definition into: >>> "x1 (event,object) is near or close to x2 (event, object) in x3 >>> (property); x1 (number, abstraction) is near or close to x2 (same type = as >>> x1) in x3 (property)" >>> >>> This will quickly make definitions bulky. On the other hand there are >>> not so many space gismu. >>> >>> 2. Make objects and events one type which will lead to {lo mlatu ka'e >>> fasnu}. >>> >>> Any other ideas? >>> >> >> I don't have an issue with "lo mlatu ka'e fasnu". >> > If so why not consider objects as assertions or even properties? This will quickly destroy the whole system of variable types leaving only their interactions relevant. We don't usually think of living things as "happening", especially since we >> have the more specific "jmive" for them, But in any case, I'm now not ha= ppy >> with "same type as" for comparatives. I realized that anything can be >> compared with anything else if you just choose the right property for >> comparison. For instance: >> >> li ci zmadu lo sfofa lo ka mi'o xo kau casnu ce'u >> "The number three exceeds sofas in how many times we discuss them". >> > Corrections made. > > Yes, there are already similar places in other gismu that dont interact > with "same type as..." way. > > >> Since there are properties that can easily accomodate any type (such as >> "lo ka ce'u se casnu") then x1 and x2 are not really restricted to one o= f >> the types of the number/object-event/proposition/property/relation/... >> typology. It's really the property x3 that fixes the type of x1 and x2 s= o >> I'd say: "x1 is near or close to x2 in x3 (property of x1 and x2)". >> >> Notice that "(property of x1 and x2}" is not the same as "{relation >> between x1 and x2}", which is required by something like "ckini". >> Properties have a single open argument and relations have (at least) two= , >> > > You mean that e.g. bruna3 has one ce'u that is equally applied to bruna1 > and bruna2 whereas ckini3 and simxu2 have two ce'u inside? > > Note taken. > Corrections made. So we've got a new type/subtype (whetever you call it) "relation". Such place contains two {ce'u} inside: porsi2, lanzu3, ckini3, jilra3, simxu2, rimni4. You can easily find them by searching for {ce'u} on the current sheet. > Is the x2 of porsi an assertion, or should it be a (transitive, >>> antisymmetric, total) binary relation? I think "porsi" works something = like >>> "li pa ce'o li re ce'o li ci cu porsi lo ka ce'u mleca ce'u" >>> >> It doesn't contradict that porsi2 is an assertion since {ka} is a >> subclass of {du'u} but I added your example to the sheet (very last >> columns) until a better glossing of this place is found. >> > > If "property" is a subclass of "assertion" (I'd prefer "proposition") > "assertion" was chosen because it has higher frequency in English. Don't forget that this is to be meant "Simple English gimste" (it is still part of "teach simple lojban" project) although we can have any number of columns for developers. then they don't belong in the same level of the typology. Shouldn't the > types be mutually exclusive? > "assertion" is du'u. property is {ka}. Isn't {ka} the same as {du'u} but with at least one ce'u inside? [See http://mw.lojban.org/index.php?title=3Dka,_du%27u,_si%27o,_ce%27u,_zo%27e] > > For mupli you have "x2 (property of x2)". mupli/fadni/traji/cnano/rirci >>> should have the same for x3, and it should be the same type as x1 (a gr= oup >>> of that type). If you have x3 as a set, then property x2 is not a prope= rty >>> of x3, but a property of the members of x3. >>> >> >> Fixed. I moved all of them to "General =3D>Set structure" class, however= , >> steci should probably also belong to them. >> as well as some other gismu from "Groups & parts" class. >> > > "selte'i" does belong to the same class. Unfortunately "steci" has x1 and > x2 reversed. > > >> For future considerations: "General comparisons" class might also >> intersect with them and thus needs rearranging. >> > > I think place order is relevant. (thing-with-property, > thing-with-property, property), e.g. "zmadu", (thing-with-property, > property, thing-with-property), e.g. "mupli". and (property, > thing-with-property, thing-with-property), e.g. "steci" (the only one?) a= re > three different classes, although clearly they can all be grouped in one > superclass. > Let's not mix "klesi" and "structure" columns then. "klesi" is about semantics, "structure" is about interaction of places and variable type declaration. Further development and evolution will give those columns more precise definitions. > mu'o mi'e xorxes > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --089e013d144261022704fab3ccb5 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable



2014-05-31 18:48 GMT+04:00 Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.na= me@gmail.com>:



2014-05-31 18:27 GMT+04:00 Jorge Lla= mb=C3=ADas <jjllambias@gmail.com>:




On Sat, May 31, 2014 at 4:02 AM, Gleki Arxokuna <= gleki.is.my= .name@gmail.com> wrote:
I added my sem= antic categorization to the sheet. It was created long long ago and wasn= 9;t meant to be used with tesumti interactions table. So in case there are = inconsistencies you are free to correct it.

Also filter= s are now shown in column headers so you can quickly show only rows with ne= cessary values in a chosen column.

That's useful. You have 7 gismu that don't start th= e x2 column with "x2", 8 that don't start the x3 column with = "x3", 2 for x4 and 1 for x5.

I will check them when others leave the sheet so = that I can make corrections without disturbing anyone.

Corrections made.
=C2=A0
=


I still see issues on gismu with properties. For example, "jibni"= ; has x2 (same type as x1), but "darno" has x2 (object). I agree = that the x2 has to be of the same type as x1 in these but then objects and = events must share the same type (spatio-temporal entities), since events ca= n be close to objects in position.

Two options:
=
1. Split the definition into:
"x1 (event,object) is near or c= lose to x2 (event, object) in x3 (property);=C2=A0x1 (number, abstraction) = is near or close to x2 (same type as x1) in x3 (property)"

This will quickly make definitions bulky. On the other = hand there are not so many space gismu.

2. Make ob= jects and events one type which will lead to {lo mlatu ka'e fasnu}.

Any other ideas?

I don't have an issue with "lo mlatu ka= 9;e fasnu".

If so why not consider objects as as= sertions or even properties? This will quickly destroy the whole system of = variable types leaving only =C2=A0their interactions relevant.
We don't usually think of living things as "happening", esp= ecially since we have the more specific "jmive" for them, But in = any case, I'm now not happy with "same type as" for comparati= ves. I realized that anything can be compared with anything else if you jus= t choose the right property for comparison. For instance:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 li ci zmadu lo sfofa lo ka mi'o xo ka= u casnu ce'u
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 "The number three exceeds sof= as in how many times we discuss them".

Corrections made.
= =C2=A0

Yes, there are already similar places in other gismu that dont i= nteract with "same type as..." way.

Since there are properties that can easily accomodate any t= ype (such as "lo ka ce'u se casnu") then x1 and x2 are not re= ally restricted to one of the types of the number/object-event/proposition/= property/relation/... typology. It's really the property x3 that fixes = the type of x1 and x2 so I'd say: "x1 is near or close to x2 in x3= (property of x1 and x2)".

Notice that "(property of x1 and x2}" is not = the same as "{relation between x1 and x2}", which is required by = something like "ckini". Properties have a single open argument an= d relations have (at least) two,

You mean that e.g.= bruna3 has one ce'u that is equally applied to bruna1 and bruna2 where= as ckini3 and simxu2 have two ce'u inside?

Note taken.

Correct= ions made.

So we've got a new type/subtype (wh= etever you call it) "relation". Such place contains two {ce'u= } inside:
porsi2, lanzu3, ckini3, jilra3, simxu2, rimni4.

You can easily find them by searching for {ce'u} on the current shee= t.=C2=A0


Is the x2 of porsi an assertion, or should it be a (transitive, antisy= mmetric, total) binary relation? I think "porsi" works something = like "li pa ce'o li re ce'o li ci cu porsi lo ka ce'u mlec= a ce'u"=C2=A0
It doesn't contradict that po= rsi2 is an assertion since {ka} is a subclass of {du'u} but I added you= r example to the sheet (very last columns) until a better glossing of this = place is found.

If "property&= quot; is a subclass of "assertion" (I'd prefer "proposit= ion")

"assertion" was chosen because it has higher frequency in English= . Don't forget that this is to be meant "Simple English gimste&quo= t; (it is still part of "teach simple lojban" project) although w= e can have any number of columns for developers.

then they don't belong in the same level of the typology. Shouldn= 't the types be mutually exclusive? =C2=A0

"assertion" is du'u. proper= ty is {ka}. Isn't {ka} =C2=A0the same as {du'u} but with at least o= ne ce'u inside? [See http://mw.lojban.org/= index.php?title=3Dka,_du%27u,_si%27o,_ce%27u,_zo%27e]

For mupli you have "x2 (property of x= 2)". mupli/fadni/traji/cnano/rirci= should have the same for x3, and it should be the same type as x1 (a group= of that type). If you have x3 as a set, then property x2 is not a property= of x3, but a property of the members of x3.=C2=A0

Fixed. I moved all of them to= "General =3D>Set structure" class, however, steci should prob= ably also belong to them.
as well as some other gismu from "= Groups & parts" class.

"selte&= #39;i" does belong to the same class. Unfortunately "steci" = has x1 and x2 reversed.
=C2=A0
For future considerations: "General comparisons" class might als= o intersect with them and thus needs rearranging.

I think place order is relevant. (th= ing-with-property, thing-with-property, property), e.g. "zmadu", = =C2=A0(thing-with-property, property, thing-with-property), =C2=A0e.g. &quo= t;mupli". and (property, thing-with-property, thing-with-property), e.= g. "steci" (the only one?) are three different classes, although = clearly they can all be grouped in one superclass. =C2=A0

Let's not mix = "klesi" =C2=A0and "structure" columns then. "klesi= " is about semantics, "structure" is about interaction of pl= aces and variable type declaration.

Further development and evolution will give those colum= ns more precise definitions.


mu'o mi'e xorxes

--
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--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsub= scribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http:= //groups.google.com/group/lojban.
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