Received: from mail-pa0-f64.google.com ([209.85.220.64]:48822) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1Wqm5T-0003jl-BN for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Sat, 31 May 2014 09:25:06 -0700 Received: by mail-pa0-f64.google.com with SMTP id lj1sf859647pab.9 for ; Sat, 31 May 2014 09:24:44 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=rk9VMSm4/w+v090vDMmNFA5uXyDwyqYmTqo48B2N468=; b=UMDdmfzJ4zugFBPneal2BybDR34N/9flAqwAzjz8xTwxuic5Q7J6teUypqNASI0biG 9VCm8Xzgewykg+FoNe6DH/r9dazRS3d2kWmcZoWzojHoVNktlIeojOuyFs9AlLpnQaqS R95Joe0/7c+LP8j0FOUjaIJeS28yRwpb7IQvr3R1rFGlN6034gBI1R5OgYS6LW3+XZep 9+fMFrkNonf4NA8SrNCTy0DzHv1kobOnbFnLoAp7DkkjBQ2nSBZ3DOW2ge0s42OkOU3B xcJFOjNZcuLXkB/JZQ8xnFdcEvdpIn+QYfRgON4kwLg0SnAkLaeUiCdynK7Z9tjw75Jz RBBw== X-Received: by 10.50.164.129 with SMTP id yq1mr106761igb.15.1401553484436; Sat, 31 May 2014 09:24:44 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.50.122.97 with SMTP id lr1ls954059igb.35.gmail; Sat, 31 May 2014 09:24:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.43.65.4 with SMTP id xk4mr8037118icb.12.1401553483779; Sat, 31 May 2014 09:24:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vc0-x229.google.com (mail-vc0-x229.google.com [2607:f8b0:400c:c03::229]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id ds6si476833vdb.0.2014.05.31.09.24.43 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Sat, 31 May 2014 09:24:43 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:400c:c03::229 as permitted sender) client-ip=2607:f8b0:400c:c03::229; Received: by mail-vc0-f169.google.com with SMTP id ij19so3469591vcb.14 for ; Sat, 31 May 2014 09:24:43 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.58.196.231 with SMTP id ip7mr950876vec.47.1401553483541; Sat, 31 May 2014 09:24:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.220.170.73 with HTTP; Sat, 31 May 2014 09:24:43 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sat, 31 May 2014 13:24:43 -0300 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Specifying sumti types: another revision of gimste is complete From: =?UTF-8?Q?Jorge_Llamb=C3=ADas?= To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: jjllambias@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:400c:c03::229 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=jjllambias@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7b6dc7a485317e04fab499e2 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam_score: 0.0 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / --047d7b6dc7a485317e04fab499e2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sat, May 31, 2014 at 12:27 PM, Gleki Arxokuna wrote > > > 2014-05-31 18:48 GMT+04:00 Gleki Arxokuna : > >> >> 2014-05-31 18:27 GMT+04:00 Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas : >> >>> >>> I don't have an issue with "lo mlatu ka'e fasnu". >>> >> > If so why not consider objects as assertions or even properties? This wil= l > quickly destroy the whole system of variable types leaving only their > interactions relevant. > I don't see how cats could be properties, since they don't have any open argument places, and I'm not sure what it would mean for them to be assertions. How do you assert a cat? What's the truth value of a cat? The difference between objects and events is the focus on spatial or temporal properties, but both have both. What properties of events do cats lack? They have position, they have duration, they can be seen, they can cause other things to happen. I'm not saying you can never distinguish objects from events, I'm saying that they have more in common than not. > So we've got a new type/subtype (whetever you call it) "relation". Such > place contains two {ce'u} inside: > porsi2, lanzu3, ckini3, jilra3, simxu2, rimni4. > porsi, ckini and simxu I agree with. I'm not at all clear on jilra, rimni and lanzu. It seems that jilra3 could be a property of jilra2, one which jilra1 would like to have but doesn't, or does but not in the manner in which jilra2 has it. I can see how a relation between them could also be used there, so perhaps both property of x2 or relation between x1 and x2 should be allowed. The order of the two ce'u is sometimes relevant for these (i.e. which ce'u is for x1 and which one for x2). Should we assume that it's always the first for x1 and the second for x2 when there are two? Shouldn't rimni4 be a property that both rimni1 and rimni2 share? "zo rimni zo cimni cu rimni lo ka zoi ke imni ke cu fanmo ce'u" (x3 dropped on purpose). For lanzu3, I don't really have much of a clue how to use it. If "property" is a subclass of "assertion" (I'd prefer "proposition") >> > > "assertion" was chosen because it has higher frequency in English. Don't > forget that this is to be meant "Simple English gimste" (it is still part > of "teach simple lojban" project) although we can have any number of > columns for developers. > But these things are not always asserted. Asserting them is just one of the things you can do with propositions. > "assertion" is du'u. property is {ka}. Isn't {ka} the same as {du'u} but > with at least one ce'u inside? [See > http://mw.lojban.org/index.php?title=3Dka,_du%27u,_si%27o,_ce%27u,_zo%27e= ] > Properties are neither assertions nor propositions. A "ka" is an incomplete "du'u". It's fine if we allow "du'u" to be incomplete, but in such cases they are not complete propositions. I agree that it's sometimes difficult to combine "simple" with "correct". > I think place order is relevant. (thing-with-property, >> thing-with-property, property), e.g. "zmadu", (thing-with-property, >> property, thing-with-property), e.g. "mupli". and (property, >> thing-with-property, thing-with-property), e.g. "steci" (the only one?) = are >> three different classes, although clearly they can all be grouped in one >> superclass. >> > > Let's not mix "klesi" and "structure" columns then. "klesi" is about > semantics, "structure" is about interaction of places and variable type > declaration. > > Further development and evolution will give those columns more precise > definitions. > Good! mu'o mi'e xorxes --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --047d7b6dc7a485317e04fab499e2 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


The difference between objects and events is the focus = on spatial or temporal properties, but both have both. What properties of e= vents do cats lack? They have position, they have duration, they can be see= n, they can cause other things to happen. I'm not saying you can never = distinguish objects from events, I'm saying that they have more in comm= on than not.

=C2=A0
So we've got a new type/subt= ype (whetever you call it) "relation". Such place contains two {c= e'u} inside:
porsi2, lanzu3, ckini3, jilra3, simxu2, rimni4.

porsi, ckini and simxu I agree with. I= 9;m not at all clear on jilra, rimni and lanzu.=C2=A0

<= div> It seems that jilra3 could be a property of jilra2, one which jilra1 would = like to have but doesn't, or does but not in the manner in which jilra2= has it. I can see how a relation between them could also be used there, so= perhaps both property of x2 or relation between x1 and x2 should be allowe= d.=C2=A0

The order of the two ce'u is sometimes relevant for= these (i.e. which ce'u is for x1 and which one for x2). Should we assu= me that it's always the first for x1 and the second for x2 when there a= re two?=C2=A0

Shouldn't rimni4 be a property that both rimni1 and= rimni2 share? "zo rimni zo cimni cu rimni lo ka zoi ke imni ke cu fan= mo ce'u"
(x3 dropped on purpose).

For lanzu3, I don't really have much of a clue how to use it.
=C2=A0

If "property" is a subclass of "assertion" (I'd pr= efer "proposition")

=
"assertion" was chosen because it has higher frequency in English= . Don't forget that this is to be meant "Simple English gimste&quo= t; (it is still part of "teach simple lojban" project) although w= e can have any number of columns for developers.

Let's not mix = "klesi" =C2=A0and "structure" columns then. "klesi= " is about semantics, "structure" is about interaction of pl= aces and variable type declaration.

Further development and evolution will give those colum= ns more precise definitions.

Good!

mu'o mi'e xorxes
=C2=A0

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