Received: from mail-we0-f189.google.com ([74.125.82.189]:40074) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1Wqnkg-0004lt-UA for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Sat, 31 May 2014 11:11:44 -0700 Received: by mail-we0-f189.google.com with SMTP id w62sf323256wes.6 for ; Sat, 31 May 2014 11:11:23 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=8CQSyGb8F06K5PAU8ZhZW97glfnkRunVwQFqK1Nf/OE=; b=DS5QZXbyd4imz/y+mt9Gqd55D8SIBspIubn48mBX7kB7ridzbNewB6J7aemdEc4VGT UKWskE6Ue/3y+qrTxy/5/kY/vjeIJ3ffR1nRTgYt3wzZsvKkVMrABCmqGO1IcGLNLHvy DASLnJcotY8zwx1FXHQChOlScXoL6luOYfSZ3XIK0Ws4o1qJEMr6dHEA+A+aOnkJ9AFj rF02TZahcWkfqYGDv2Ugj4Y+hkMrNVYx9Y1YnaJ0mBxc7WtPrwNCijRRZ0kj6Y3arjnQ leF/G+lKGg5ZtD8EIgQhcmyBeajpnih4gK6+vZ/4C0k1f+uRDXtyrZxxCoZaz+GjNoqB mvSA== X-Received: by 10.152.43.227 with SMTP id z3mr246268lal.3.1401559883754; Sat, 31 May 2014 11:11:23 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.152.22.67 with SMTP id b3ls277780laf.1.gmail; Sat, 31 May 2014 11:11:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.112.34.70 with SMTP id x6mr257923lbi.13.1401559882955; Sat, 31 May 2014 11:11:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wg0-x231.google.com (mail-wg0-x231.google.com [2a00:1450:400c:c00::231]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id z6si257975wix.1.2014.05.31.11.11.22 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Sat, 31 May 2014 11:11:22 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c00::231 as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:400c:c00::231; Received: by mail-wg0-f49.google.com with SMTP id m15so3378525wgh.20 for ; Sat, 31 May 2014 11:11:22 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.194.248.130 with SMTP id ym2mr34763770wjc.88.1401559882792; Sat, 31 May 2014 11:11:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.194.25.163 with HTTP; Sat, 31 May 2014 11:11:22 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sat, 31 May 2014 22:11:22 +0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Specifying sumti types: another revision of gimste is complete From: Gleki Arxokuna To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c00::231 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=089e013d1442f207b504fab61661 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam_score: 0.0 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / --089e013d1442f207b504fab61661 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 2014-05-31 20:24 GMT+04:00 Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas : > > > > On Sat, May 31, 2014 at 12:27 PM, Gleki Arxokuna < > gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote >> >> >> 2014-05-31 18:48 GMT+04:00 Gleki Arxokuna : >> >>> >>> 2014-05-31 18:27 GMT+04:00 Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas : >>> >>>> >>>> I don't have an issue with "lo mlatu ka'e fasnu". >>>> >>> >> If so why not consider objects as assertions or even properties? This >> will quickly destroy the whole system of variable types leaving only th= eir >> interactions relevant. >> > > I don't see how cats could be properties, since they don't have any open > argument places, and I'm not sure what it would mean for them to be > assertions. How do you assert a cat? What's the truth value of a cat? > > The difference between objects and events is the focus on spatial or > temporal properties, but both have both. What properties of events do cat= s > lack? They have position, they have duration, they can be seen, they can > cause other things to happen. I'm not saying you can never distinguish > objects from events, I'm saying that they have more in common than not. > Right now in x1 space there are 188 object+event places (including "any type" places), 97 pure "event" places, 1062 "object"/"object+number" places. It'd be a huge work to determine if we can merge "event" and "object" types together in every case. Apart from them sance1 and zgike1 (have the role "sound") can be probably merged. Although I wonder if they are of "text" type too (krixa, siclu, cmoni also have "text+sound" places). > > >> So we've got a new type/subtype (whetever you call it) "relation". Such >> place contains two {ce'u} inside: >> porsi2, lanzu3, ckini3, jilra3, simxu2, rimni4. >> > > porsi, ckini and simxu I agree with. I'm not at all clear on jilra, rimni > and lanzu. > > It seems that jilra3 could be a property of jilra2, one which jilra1 woul= d > like to have but doesn't, or does but not in the manner in which jilra2 h= as > it. I can see how a relation between them could also be used there, so > perhaps both property of x2 or relation between x1 and x2 should be > allowed. > > The order of the two ce'u is sometimes relevant for these (i.e. which ce'= u > is for x1 and which one for x2). Should we assume that it's always the > first for x1 and the second for x2 when there are two? > Yes. And since both x2 and x1+x2 can be inside x3 then let's by fiat declare that jilra3 is of the type "x3 (property of x2)". x1 can be reached using {lo no'a} when necessary since it might not be that intuitive for humans as it is with other properties (the latter justify the existence of {ce'u} over {lo [SE] no'a}). > Shouldn't rimni4 be a property that both rimni1 and rimni2 share? "zo > rimni zo cimni cu rimni lo ka zoi ke imni ke cu fanmo ce'u" > (x3 dropped on purpose). > rimni4 changed to "x4 (property of x1 and x2)". > > For lanzu3, I don't really have much of a clue how to use it. > {ti lanzu lo mamta jo'u lo patfu jo'u lo verba lo ka [ce'u ce'u] prami} ? ;= ) > > If "property" is a subclass of "assertion" (I'd prefer "proposition") >>> >> >> "assertion" was chosen because it has higher frequency in English. Don'= t >> forget that this is to be meant "Simple English gimste" (it is still par= t >> of "teach simple lojban" project) although we can have any number of >> columns for developers. >> > > But these things are not always asserted. Asserting them is just one of > the things you can do with propositions. > ^ to be changed. > >> "assertion" is du'u. property is {ka}. Isn't {ka} the same as {du'u} bu= t >> with at least one ce'u inside? [See >> http://mw.lojban.org/index.php?title=3Dka,_du%27u,_si%27o,_ce%27u,_zo%27= e] >> > > Properties are neither assertions nor propositions. A "ka" is an > incomplete "du'u". It's fine if we allow "du'u" to be incomplete, but in > such cases they are not complete propositions. I agree that it's sometime= s > difficult to combine "simple" with "correct". > > > >> I think place order is relevant. (thing-with-property, >>> thing-with-property, property), e.g. "zmadu", (thing-with-property, >>> property, thing-with-property), e.g. "mupli". and (property, >>> thing-with-property, thing-with-property), e.g. "steci" (the only one?)= are >>> three different classes, although clearly they can all be grouped in on= e >>> superclass. >>> >> >> Let's not mix "klesi" and "structure" columns then. "klesi" is about >> semantics, "structure" is about interaction of places and variable type >> declaration. >> >> Further development and evolution will give those columns more precise >> definitions. >> > > Good! > > mu'o mi'e xorxes > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --089e013d1442f207b504fab61661 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
2014= -05-31 20:24 GMT+04:00 Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas <jjllambias@gmail.com>= ;:


The difference between objects and events is the focus = on spatial or temporal properties, but both have both. What properties of e= vents do cats lack? They have position, they have duration, they can be see= n, they can cause other things to happen. I'm not saying you can never = distinguish objects from events, I'm saying that they have more in comm= on than not.

Apart from them sance1 and zgike1 (have the role "sound") ca= n be probably merged. Although I wonder if they are of "text" typ= e too (krixa, siclu, cmoni also have "text+sound" places).


=C2=A0
So we've got a new type/subt= ype (whetever you call it) "relation". Such place contains two {c= e'u} inside:
porsi2, lanzu3, ckini3, jilra3, simxu2, rimni4.

porsi, ckini and simxu I agree with= . I'm not at all clear on jilra, rimni and lanzu.=C2=A0

<= /div>
It seems that jilra3 could be a property of jilra2, one which jilra1 would = like to have but doesn't, or does but not in the manner in which jilra2= has it. I can see how a relation between them could also be used there, so= perhaps both property of x2 or relation between x1 and x2 should be allowe= d. =C2=A0

The order of the two ce'u is sometimes relevant for= these (i.e. which ce'u is for x1 and which one for x2). Should we assu= me that it's always the first for x1 and the second for x2 when there a= re two?=C2=A0

Yes. And since both x2 a= nd x1+x2 can be inside x3 then let's by fiat declare that jilra3 is of = the type "x3 (property of x2)". x1 can be reached using {lo no= 9;a} when necessary since it might not be that intuitive for humans as it i= s with other properties (the latter justify the existence of {ce'u} ove= r {lo [SE] no'a}).


Shouldn't rimni4 be a property that both rimni1 and= rimni2 share? "zo rimni zo cimni cu rimni lo ka zoi ke imni ke cu fan= mo ce'u"
(x3 dropped on purpose).

rimni4 changed to "x4 (property of x1= and x2)".
=C2=A0

For lanzu3, I don't really have much of a clue how to use it.

{ti lanzu lo mamta jo&#= 39;u lo patfu jo'u lo verba lo ka [ce'u ce'u] prami} ? ;)

=C2=A0

If "property" is a subclass of "assertion" (I'd pr= efer "proposition")

=
"assertion" was chosen because it has higher frequency in English= . Don't forget that this is to be meant "Simple English gimste&quo= t; (it is still part of "teach simple lojban" project) although w= e can have any number of columns for developers.

But these things are not always asserted. Asserting them is jus= t one of the things you can do with propositions.=C2=A0
^ to be changed.


=C2=A0


=C2=A0
=
I think place order is relevant. (thing-with-property, thing-wit= h-property, property), e.g. "zmadu", =C2=A0(thing-with-property, = property, thing-with-property), =C2=A0e.g. "mupli". and (property= , thing-with-property, thing-with-property), e.g. "steci" (the on= ly one?) are three different classes, although clearly they can all be grou= ped in one superclass. =C2=A0


Further development and evolution will give those colum= ns more precise definitions.

Good!

mu'o mi'e xorxes
=C2=A0

--
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--
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