Received: from mail-we0-f184.google.com ([74.125.82.184]:32830) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1Wr2T7-0001h8-Uf for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Sun, 01 Jun 2014 02:54:28 -0700 Received: by mail-we0-f184.google.com with SMTP id x48sf329062wes.1 for ; Sun, 01 Jun 2014 02:54:14 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=DhDQFotyXvy8Af3GCzkVY5tO9Y40oDw3YteeY+pysTA=; b=gCi7gk7Lfzd7TlVlYuvUazWkxGFE25kDxOE8K+QVYBSPr0g4NB3B84W9QkpVeXUOs/ E2fJuiEZdXGXlYAf/0L2wiQEkznJ2kYA7f6eQ0dEyG2SvlXtHYNeOy+sfbIhnkp1JtHi MixzFNITa/cjl5kmGMTkQ9jN4EJQFU7ECYKooV6dbhGXUHyNewL3aZBnF1stvRg+0gPJ x1oJ4Cgno7FprWFZeJHI1UbZaskUBjSA85kLlfMsC484TMla/W0W9KmQyofSVsT28vu3 N5lbcYwStOZIieFkGaPSYCT4U32heHDT5LGiHVDDCmOJFYasMhUyW4U26dV0OXo9G2uL G13A== X-Received: by 10.152.87.2 with SMTP id t2mr98laz.40.1401616454314; Sun, 01 Jun 2014 02:54:14 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.152.6.169 with SMTP id c9ls296991laa.92.gmail; Sun, 01 Jun 2014 02:54:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.112.137.138 with SMTP id qi10mr2332711lbb.4.1401616453483; Sun, 01 Jun 2014 02:54:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wi0-x235.google.com (mail-wi0-x235.google.com [2a00:1450:400c:c05::235]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id eh2si320965wib.2.2014.06.01.02.54.13 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Sun, 01 Jun 2014 02:54:13 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c05::235 as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:400c:c05::235; Received: by mail-wi0-f181.google.com with SMTP id n15so3142105wiw.2 for ; Sun, 01 Jun 2014 02:54:13 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.194.62.176 with SMTP id z16mr40323168wjr.76.1401616453327; Sun, 01 Jun 2014 02:54:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.194.25.163 with HTTP; Sun, 1 Jun 2014 02:54:13 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2014 13:54:13 +0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Specifying sumti types: another revision of gimste is complete From: Gleki Arxokuna To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c05::235 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7ba979c2cfe1f804fac3421d X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam_score: 0.0 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / --047d7ba979c2cfe1f804fac3421d Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Other news: about cultural gismu. To show all cultural gismu one had to select in "klesi 2" Continents, Culture.Languages, Culture.Nationalities, Culture.Religion However, the last class includes not only examples for religion but also generic gismu like {ranmi}. Therefore I moved budjo, dadjo,jegvo,muslo,xriso and all Culture.Languages, Culture.Nationalities to Culture.Examples. Indeed, {spero} and {lojbo} are not only languages but cultures appeared on top of them. However, it'd be hard to imagine {ketco} or {bemro} as a single culture. Therefore, Continents and Culture.Examples are classes that filter out all cultural gismu. Thus now we can remove "aspect" as a role in gismu places. 2014-06-01 4:30 GMT+04:00 Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas : > > On Sat, May 31, 2014 at 3:11 PM, Gleki Arxokuna < > gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote: > >> >>> Right now in x1 space there are 188 object+event places (including "any >> type" places), 97 pure "event" places, 1062 "object"/"object+number" >> places. It'd be a huge work to determine if we can merge "event" and >> "object" types together in every case. >> > > It doesn't have to be done in one day, but I think any object ko'a could > be seen as the event "lo nu ko'a du ko'a", "ko'a being itself". > Before that we need to check if some proposition and property places can also take events. E.g. kakne2 was an event place that could lead to an object place (mi kakne lo bajra) there. Now it's a property place (mi kakne lo ka ce'u du lo bajra). Propositions can be seen as properties (mi kakne lodu'u lo no'a cu du lo bajra). What is chosen in this or that place seems to be rather arbitrary to me. So the first step is to clearly separate events vs. propositions+properties= . > >> Apart from them sance1 and zgike1 (have the role "sound") can be probabl= y >> merged. Although I wonder if they are of "text" type too (krixa, siclu, >> cmoni also have "text+sound" places). >> > > I think "sound" is way too specific to be a type. Something like "living > organism", or even "container" would have many more instances than "sound= ". > And if sance1 and zgike1 are "sound", shouldn't tonga1, voksa1, savru1 an= d > rilti1 be as well? > rilti1 or rilti2? Or both? Also sanga2. The problem for me is that krixa2, cmoni2 can probably be texts. And text and sound often go together. Semantic categorization currently puts them in different classes (communication, non-linguistic utterances, Music/sound...) Can I cusku a selsanga? That's why I wanted "sound" to be a separate type that could include both sounds and "text". > > Other suspect types in x1 are: > > (la'e text) for lerfu1. "la'e text" doesn't mean anything, since anything > at all can be la'e text with the right text. lo lerfu cu sinxa gi'e marna= , > I don't think we need to treat it as a special type. > changed to "any type". > mixre > changed to "x1 (object, event) is a mixture including x2 (set of objects or events)" > /gunma > changed to "x1 (object, event) is a joint mass, team of components that are x2 (object, event)" > /kamni > kamni3 is probably a "set". /ciste > changed > /lanzu > changed > /jenmi have x1 (mass) > changed > , while bakfu/derxi/sorcu/stura/liste/trene/linji/cecmu/bende/salta/sanmi > and perhaps others don't. I don't think (mass) should be a type. These ar= e > just things that consist of a group of more or less homogeneous things an= d > which as a group is distinctive enough to get special recognition as an > emerging object. > > jinga/casnu/porsi are marked as sets, I think casnu and porsi are just > groups, they only need to be plural, and jinga doesn't even need to be a > group > changed > , I don't get why it's marked as a set. rilti is marked as a sequence but > again it should be just a group > Any example of rilti1? What is a group according to you? porsi1 includes {ce'o} casnu1 includes {ce} or {jo'u}. , it shouldn't have a sui generis type. > > ckilu/sidbo are marked as "(concept)". A sidbo is a du'u, it's something > that could potentially become a fact. I don't think it needs a special > type. And ckilu has little to do with concepts, as far as I can tell. > What to fill ckilu1 with if not with {si'o kei}? > pincivi is marked as "(body)" > fixed > , which seems strange given that > vikmi/vamtu/sputu/kafke/klaku/vasxu/citka/pinxe/xagji/taske/... are not > (and should not). > > mu'o mi'e xorxes > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --047d7ba979c2cfe1f804fac3421d Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Other news: about cultural gismu.
To show all cultural= gismu one had to select in "klesi 2" Continents, Culture.Languag= es, Culture.Nationalities, Culture.Religion

Howeve= r, the last class includes not only examples for religion but also generic = gismu like {ranmi}. Therefore I moved budjo, dadjo,jegvo,muslo,xriso and al= l Culture.Languages, Culture.Nationalities=C2=A0
to Culture.Examples.

Indeed, {spero} and {lojbo} are not only languages= but cultures appeared on top of them.

=
However, it'd be hard to imagine {ketco} or = {bemro} as a single culture. Therefore,=C2=A0Continents and Culture.Example= s are classes that filter out all cultural gismu.
Thus now we can remove "aspect" as a role in gismu places.
<= div class=3D"gmail_extra">
2014-06-01 4:30 GM= T+04:00 Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas <jjllambias@gmail.com>:

On Sat, May 31, 2014 at 3:11 PM, Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote:

Right now in x1 space = there are 188 object+event places (including "any type" places), = 97 pure "event" places, 1062 "object"/"object+numb= er" places. It'd be a huge work to determine if we can merge "= ;event" and "object" types together in every case.

It doesn't hav= e to be done in one day, but I think any object ko'a could be seen as t= he event "lo nu ko'a du ko'a", "ko'a being itsel= f".
Before that we need to check if some pr= oposition and property places can =C2=A0also take events.

E.g. kakne2 was an event place that could lead to an object place (= mi kakne lo bajra) there. Now it's a property place (mi kakne lo ka ce&= #39;u du lo bajra).

Propositions can be seen as properties (mi kakne lodu&#= 39;u lo no'a cu du lo bajra). What is chosen in this or that place seem= s to be rather arbitrary to me.
So the first step is to clearly s= eparate events vs. propositions+properties.

=C2=A0
Apart from them sance1 and zgike1 (have the role "sound") ca= n be probably merged. Although I wonder if they are of "text" typ= e too (krixa, siclu, cmoni also have "text+sound" places).

I think "soun= d" is way too specific to be a type. Something like "living organ= ism", or even "container" would have many more instances tha= n "sound". And if sance1 and zgike1 are "sound", should= n't tonga1, voksa1, savru1 and rilti1 be as well?

rilti1 or rilti2? Or bot= h? Also sanga2.
The problem for me is that krixa2, cmoni2 can pro= bably be texts. And text and sound often go together.
Semantic ca= tegorization currently puts them in different classes (communication, non-l= inguistic utterances, Music/sound...)

Can I cusku a selsanga? That's why I wanted "s= ound" to be a separate type that could include both sounds and "t= ext".

=C2=A0

Other suspect types in x1 are:

(la'e text) for lerfu1. "la'e text" doesn't mean any= thing, since anything at all can be la'e text with the right text. lo l= erfu cu sinxa gi'e marna, I don't think we need to treat it as a sp= ecial type.

changed to "any typ= e".


mixre

changed to "x1 (object, event) is a mixture including x2 (set o= f objects or events)"
=C2=A0
/gunma =C2=A0

chan= ged to "x1 (object, event) is a joint mass, team of components that ar= e x2 (object, event)"
=C2=A0
/kamni

kamni3 = is probably a "set".

/ciste
changed =C2=A0
/lanzu
changed=C2=A0
/jenmi have x1 (mass)
changed=C2= =A0
, while bakfu/derxi/sorcu/stura/liste/trene/linji/cecmu/bende/salta/sanmi = and perhaps others don't. I don't think (mass) should be a type. Th= ese are just things that consist of a group of more or less homogeneous thi= ngs and which as a group is distinctive enough to get special recognition a= s an emerging object.=C2=A0

jinga/casnu/porsi are marked as sets, I think casnu and= porsi are just groups, they only need to be plural, and jinga doesn't = even need to be a group
changed
=C2=A0
, I don't get why it's marked as a set. rilti is marked as a s= equence but again it should be just a group
Any example of rilti1?
=C2=A0

= What is a group according to you?
porsi1 includes {ce'o}
casnu1 includes {ce} or {jo'u= }.

, it shouldn't have a sui generis type.

ckilu/sidbo are marked as "(concept)". A sidb= o is a du'u, it's something that could potentially become a fact. I= don't think it needs a special type. And ckilu has little to do with c= oncepts, as far as I can tell.=C2=A0

What to fill ckilu1 with= if not with {si'o kei}?=C2=A0


pincivi is marked as "(body)"

fixed
=C2=A0
, which seems strange given that vikmi/vamtu/sputu/kafke/klaku/vasxu/citka= /pinxe/xagji/taske/... are not (and should not).
=
mu'o mi'e xorxes

--
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To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsub= scribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http:= //groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit http= s://groups.google.com/d/optout.
--047d7ba979c2cfe1f804fac3421d--