Received: from mail-we0-f184.google.com ([74.125.82.184]:42946) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1Wr7qi-0007xz-Jf for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Sun, 01 Jun 2014 08:39:11 -0700 Received: by mail-we0-f184.google.com with SMTP id x48sf352160wes.1 for ; Sun, 01 Jun 2014 08:38:57 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=yrhHKhxCNWxNjuGqKtdfzFAXV0Wgpso1aFwqDHBMFJY=; b=OqSUJ0T0hQZ6GyMLbCorXpnGBVUkPNrcLYF7prk8oOpL9VzYtSoeqAEv57M80WXzvn ve33zy4PMAQj+UtOiJmy0qP1fpbztRESvcw6zrpIndGHIdtS8jRmAQ3dxC62asCwzIro kCovYkoYVMIKrhXQpV/ZB346oi5zyewTYQzScDmih8veWRcG38X7HaoXll7Rc18bUNo8 ivdvrKEqpN7Il7zB98vQaoikzdaJb/0TLXn7CI524hZJrIpyiShhnBKvjozM9zgg/tgg JZwunobH9mnRWW4b2mN3ZxfnQhmy2kBcPzU/rKOdF3BBtrG3BNEihO+eq4jMQs++z54l Fliw== X-Received: by 10.152.28.101 with SMTP id a5mr288036lah.4.1401637137199; Sun, 01 Jun 2014 08:38:57 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.152.19.166 with SMTP id g6ls268076lae.48.gmail; Sun, 01 Jun 2014 08:38:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.112.154.225 with SMTP id vr1mr2018lbb.24.1401637136391; Sun, 01 Jun 2014 08:38:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wi0-x236.google.com (mail-wi0-x236.google.com [2a00:1450:400c:c05::236]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id e12si108324wiv.1.2014.06.01.08.38.56 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Sun, 01 Jun 2014 08:38:56 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c05::236 as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:400c:c05::236; Received: by mail-wi0-x236.google.com with SMTP id r20so3395793wiv.9 for ; Sun, 01 Jun 2014 08:38:56 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.194.186.210 with SMTP id fm18mr41684651wjc.67.1401637136258; Sun, 01 Jun 2014 08:38:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.194.25.163 with HTTP; Sun, 1 Jun 2014 08:38:56 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2014 19:38:56 +0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Specifying sumti types: another revision of gimste is complete From: Gleki Arxokuna To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c05::236 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=e89a8f2344499c5b7904fac813b8 X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.7 X-Spam_score_int: -6 X-Spam_bar: / --e89a8f2344499c5b7904fac813b8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 2014-06-01 18:42 GMT+04:00 Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas : > > On Sun, Jun 1, 2014 at 6:54 AM, Gleki Arxokuna > wrote: > >> Before that we need to check if some proposition and property places can >> also take events. >> > > It seems to me that properties (i.e. incomplete propositions) are in a > sense incompatible with anything else. The only way a property place coul= d > also take something else is through overloading. That's not necessarily a > bad thing, but it means using the same word for two strongly related but > different predicates. > > >> E.g. kakne2 was an event place that could lead to an object place (mi >> kakne lo bajra) there. Now it's a property place (mi kakne lo ka ce'u du= lo >> bajra). >> > > And in the opposite direction, some people prefer binxo2 as a property, s= o > that "mi binxo lo bajra" becomes "mi binxo lo ka ce'u bajra". > > >> Propositions can be seen as properties (mi kakne lodu'u lo no'a cu du lo >> bajra). What is chosen in this or that place seems to be rather arbitrar= y >> to me. >> > > Incomplete propositions are not complete propositions, but since places > for incomplete propositions are normally tied to another place that > contains what is required to complete the proposition, then yes, in > principle either way could be chosen to define the predicate. This doesn'= t > apply so easily to cases where the property is tied to two places at once > though, because there's no immediate proposition that could replace the > property. > > Most predicates with places tagged as "du'u" also have an additional > "about" place, which means they could be replaced with property places: "= mi > djuno lo ka ce'u nelci lo cakla kei do". The problem here is that in thes= e > predicates the "about" place comes after the proposition place, and for > most property predicates the thing-with-property place comes before the > property. So a more natural order would be "mi djuno do lo ka ce'u nelci = lo > cakla". > > >> So the first step is to clearly separate events vs. >> propositions+properties. >> > > An incomplete proposition does not describe an event. A complete > proposition can and often does describe an event. If we wanted to, we cou= ld > easily make do with a single NU for all subordinate clauses, since it's n= ot > really necessary to point out explicitly that a proposition describes an > event, and we don't strictly need more than "ce'u" to mark an incomplete > proposition. So yes, the assignment of ka/du'u/nu to argument places is > rather arbitrary. > > du'u: introduces a complete proposition, unless it contains an explicit > ce'u, in which case it introduces an incomplete proposition. > ka: introduces an incomplete proposition. It may but need not contain an > explicit ce'u, because if not explicit an implicit one is assumed. > nu: introduces a complete proposition that describes an event. Same as > du'u with respect to ce'u. > But then you will say that (apart from very abstract propositions) propositions are events and events are objects. Then what? Replace all of them to just objects? > Some propositions are just too abstract to be said to describe an event > e.g. lo du'u li vo sumji li re li re, where or when would that take place= ? > Not really an event. > > I think "sound" is way too specific to be a type. Something like "living >>> organism", or even "container" would have many more instances than "sou= nd". >>> And if sance1 and zgike1 are "sound", shouldn't tonga1, voksa1, savru1 = and >>> rilti1 be as well? >>> >> >> rilti1 or rilti2? Or both? Also sanga2. >> > > I was only looking at the x1 column, but yes, those would seem to be > sounds too. > > >> The problem for me is that krixa2, cmoni2 can probably be texts. And tex= t >> and sound often go together. >> Semantic categorization currently puts them in different classes >> (communication, non-linguistic utterances, Music/sound...) >> >> Can I cusku a selsanga? That's why I wanted "sound" to be a separate typ= e >> that could include both sounds and "text". >> > > If a text is anything with linguistic meaning, then some sounds are also > text. But there are sounds that are not text, and texts that are not soun= d. > cmoni2 is explicitly described as non-linguistic. > > >> >>> mixre >>> >> >> changed to "x1 (object, event) is a mixture including x2 (set of objects >> or events)" >> > >> >>> /gunma >>> >> >> changed to "x1 (object, event) is a joint mass, team of components that >> are x2 (object, event)" >> > > I think those should be "any type". > > >> >> >>> /kamni >>> >> >> kamni3 is probably a "set". >> > > In my opinion no place should be marked as "set". > > >> rilti is marked as a sequence but again it should be just a group >>> >> Any example of rilti1? >> > > It's easy to provide vague examples like > > lo sutra cu rilti lo nau zgike > "A fast one is the rhythm of this music." > > but I guess you want a more specific description like "3/4 is the rhythm > of this song". I can already hear the objections, but I think I would go > with "li ci fi'u vo cu rilti lo nau zgike". > > >> What is a group according to you? >> > > One that consists of many. E pluribus unum. > > >> porsi1 includes {ce'o} >> casnu1 includes {ce} or {jo'u}. >> > > I think porsi1 takes the one (lo gunma) while casnu1 takes the many (lo s= e > gunma). But these are not types in our > number/object/event/proposition/property typology. Both the one and the > many could be of any of those types. > I want students of Lojban (AI included) to understand how to form this or that place. porsi1 require ce'o, casnu1 and kamni3 require jo'u. This should be reflected in the definitions. > > ckilu/sidbo are marked as "(concept)". A sidbo is a du'u, it's something >>> that could potentially become a fact. I don't think it needs a special >>> type. And ckilu has little to do with concepts, as far as I can tell. >>> >> >> What to fill ckilu1 with if not with {si'o kei}? >> > > I don't exactly know, but I have a lot of difficulty extracting a scale > from a proposition. > > mu'o mi'e xorxes > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --e89a8f2344499c5b7904fac813b8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable



2014-06-01 18:42 GMT+04:00 Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas &l= t;jjllambias@gmai= l.com>:
=
On Sun, Jun 1, 2014 at 6:54 = AM, Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wro= te:
Before that we need to check if some p= roposition and property places can =C2=A0also take events.

It seems to = me that properties (i.e. incomplete propositions) are in a sense incompatib= le with anything else. The only way a property place could also take someth= ing else is through overloading. That's not necessarily a bad thing, bu= t it means using the same word for two strongly related but different predi= cates.
=C2=A0
E.g. kakne2 was an ev= ent place that could lead to an object place (mi kakne lo bajra) there. Now= it's a property place (mi kakne lo ka ce'u du lo bajra).

And in the o= pposite direction, some people prefer binxo2 as a property, so that "m= i binxo lo bajra" becomes "mi binxo lo ka ce'u bajra".
=C2=A0
Propositions can be s= een as properties (mi kakne lodu'u lo no'a cu du lo bajra). What is= chosen in this or that place seems to be rather arbitrary to me.

Incomplete p= ropositions are not complete propositions, but since places for incomplete = propositions are normally tied to another place that contains what is requi= red to complete the proposition, then yes, in principle either way could be= chosen to define the predicate. This doesn't apply so easily to cases = where the property is tied to two places at once though, because there'= s no immediate proposition that could replace the property.

Most predicates with places tagged as "du'u&qu= ot; also have an additional "about" place, which means they could= be replaced with property places: "mi djuno lo ka ce'u nelci lo c= akla kei do". The problem here is that in these predicates the "a= bout" place comes after the proposition place, and for most property p= redicates the thing-with-property place comes before the property. So a mor= e natural order would be "mi djuno do lo ka ce'u nelci lo cakla&qu= ot;.
=C2=A0
So the first step is = to clearly separate events vs. propositions+properties.

An incomplet= e proposition does not describe an event. A complete proposition can and of= ten does describe an event. If we wanted to, we could easily make do with a= single NU for all subordinate clauses, since it's not really necessary= to point out explicitly that a proposition describes an event, and we don&= #39;t strictly need more than "ce'u" to mark an incomplete pr= oposition. So yes, the assignment of ka/du'u/nu to argument places is r= ather arbitrary.

du'u: introduces a complete proposition, unless it = contains an explicit ce'u, in which case it introduces an incomplete pr= oposition.
ka: introduces an incomplete proposition. It may but n= eed not contain an explicit ce'u, because if not explicit an implicit o= ne is assumed.
nu: introduces a complete proposition that describes an event. Same as= du'u with respect to ce'u.

But then you will say that (apart from very abstract propo= sitions) propositions are events and events are objects. Then what? Replace= all of them to just objects?


Some propos= itions are just too abstract to be said to describe an event e.g. lo du'= ;u li vo sumji li re li re, where or when would that take place? Not really= an event.=C2=A0

I think "sound" is way too specific to be a type. Something like= "living organism", or even "container" would have many= more instances than "sound". And if sance1 and zgike1 are "= sound", shouldn't tonga1, voksa1, savru1 and rilti1 be as well?

rilti1 or rilti2? = Or both? Also sanga2.

I was only looking at the x1 column, but yes, those would seem to = be sounds too.
=C2=A0
The problem for me is that= krixa2, cmoni2 can probably be texts. And text and sound often go together= .
Semantic categorization currently puts them in different classes (comm= unication, non-linguistic utterances, Music/sound...)

Can I cusku a selsanga? That's why I wanted "s= ound" to be a separate type that could include both sounds and "t= ext".

If a text is anything with linguistic meaning, then some sounds are also te= xt. But there are sounds that are not text, and texts that are not sound. c= moni2 is explicitly described as non-linguistic.
=C2=A0

mixre

changed to &= quot;x1 (object, event) is a mixture including x2 (set of objects or events= )"
=C2=A0
=
/gunma =C2=A0

chan= ged to "x1 (object, event) is a joint mass, team of components that ar= e x2 (object, event)"

I think thos= e should be "any type". =C2=A0
=C2=A0
=C2=A0
/kamni

kamni3 = is probably a "set".
In my opinion no place should be marked as "set"= ;.
=C2=A0
=C2=A0rilti is marked as a sequence but again it should be just a grou= p
Any example of rilti1?

=C2=A0It's e= asy to provide vague examples like

=C2=A0 =C2=A0lo sutra cu rilti lo nau zgike
= =C2=A0 =C2=A0"A fast one is the rhythm of this music."
=
but I guess you want a more specific description like "= 3/4 is the rhythm of this song". I can already hear the objections, bu= t I think I would go with "li ci fi'u vo cu rilti lo nau zgike&quo= t;.


What is a g= roup according to you?

One that consists = of many. E pluribus unum.
=C2=A0
porsi1 includes {ce'o}
casnu1 includes {ce} or {jo'u= }.

I think po= rsi1 takes the one (lo gunma) while casnu1 takes the many (lo se gunma). Bu= t these are not types in our number/object/event/proposition/property typol= ogy. Both the one and the many could be of any of those types.

I want students of Lojba= n (AI included) to understand how to form this or that place. porsi1 requir= e ce'o, casnu1 and kamni3 require jo'u. This should be reflected in= the definitions.

=C2=A0

ckilu/sidbo are marked as "(concept)". A sidbo is a du'u, it= 's something that could potentially become a fact. I don't think it= needs a special type. And ckilu has little to do with concepts, as far as = I can tell.=C2=A0

What to fill ckilu= 1 with if not with {si'o kei}?=C2=A0

I don't exactly know, but I have a lot of d= ifficulty extracting a scale from a proposition.=C2=A0

mu'o mi'e xorxes

--
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Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsub= scribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http:= //groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit http= s://groups.google.com/d/optout.
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