Received: from mail-yh0-f58.google.com ([209.85.213.58]:39968) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1WrFu8-0003SG-9I for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Sun, 01 Jun 2014 17:15:20 -0700 Received: by mail-yh0-f58.google.com with SMTP id a41sf1114757yho.23 for ; Sun, 01 Jun 2014 17:15:02 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=qA+qPRANO4Uw3p91FaruK/eqt/z3GTB/32wvSCcWnFY=; b=cBRplNjAfFfXuEN8ZoN86Yd4Sy6ryddlDLCYLt5wzAHQFQjcIQs/qE+dSwTIMS/tT3 iOdcpUjXbyd5Y5LatQT5zlDt56pqKk/yLj1OGgHujxOYBHpdifQPMeJ+Ar5CMQb7nNTQ 1w9Gq2PrCtiGf81U1hrw4pY4G13NAYsl3qe/FznUiNSkKgxJWyZ1PKOo5qeK4c3HcIBh X8YbZnUYxBWM/QgTaQ+pGgai2fya8G2c0s3BK17CeAXeNmEstNLlhdKsIef3pmblC3pg TyZpPMI/SrdwcwJMhLXQjhowSZxA1P4ZqYhfhT5UCj7T+cF70KZzINNdDlInXQvm2OLO scUw== X-Received: by 10.182.34.161 with SMTP id a1mr164984obj.5.1401668102126; Sun, 01 Jun 2014 17:15:02 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.182.80.42 with SMTP id o10ls604059obx.92.gmail; Sun, 01 Jun 2014 17:15:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.182.86.5 with SMTP id l5mr13120730obz.32.1401668101430; Sun, 01 Jun 2014 17:15:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vc0-x22a.google.com (mail-vc0-x22a.google.com [2607:f8b0:400c:c03::22a]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id xn6si650065vdc.2.2014.06.01.17.15.01 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Sun, 01 Jun 2014 17:15:01 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:400c:c03::22a as permitted sender) client-ip=2607:f8b0:400c:c03::22a; Received: by mail-vc0-f170.google.com with SMTP id la4so4409984vcb.1 for ; Sun, 01 Jun 2014 17:15:01 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.220.49.195 with SMTP id w3mr26651428vcf.26.1401668101269; Sun, 01 Jun 2014 17:15:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.220.170.73 with HTTP; Sun, 1 Jun 2014 17:15:01 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2014 21:15:01 -0300 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Specifying sumti types: another revision of gimste is complete From: =?UTF-8?Q?Jorge_Llamb=C3=ADas?= To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: jjllambias@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:400c:c03::22a as permitted sender) smtp.mail=jjllambias@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7b3432c844ed6604facf4948 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam_score: 0.0 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / --047d7b3432c844ed6604facf4948 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 On Sun, Jun 1, 2014 at 12:38 PM, Gleki Arxokuna wrote: > > But then you will say that (apart from very abstract propositions) > propositions are events and events are objects. Then what? Replace all of > them to just objects? > No, some propositions describe events, but the proposition that describes the event is not the event. And events are not objects (in some strict sense of "object"), although both events and objects are spatio-temporal entities. I want students of Lojban (AI included) to understand how to form this or > that place. porsi1 require ce'o, casnu1 and kamni3 require jo'u. This > should be reflected in the definitions. > But in what sense does porsi1 require ce'o or casnu1 require jo'u? "lo valsi cu porsi lo lerfu", "lo re prenu cu casnu lo tcima". porsi1 allows ce'o, it doesn't require it, and it allows it because "ko'a ce'o ko'e" basically means someting like "lo porsi be fi ko'a jo'u ko'e". And casnu1 allows jo'u (it doesn't require it) because ko'a jo'u ko'e is defined so that "ko'a .e ko'e me ko'a jo'u ko'e .i je ro me ko'a jo'u ko'e cu me ko'a gi'a me ko'e". But that's more about the definition of "ce'o" and "jo'u" than about porsi or casnu. What casnu1 requires is a sumti with more than one referent, and "jo'u" is just one of many ways to provide that, and porsi1 requires a sumti whose referent consists of many things in order, and "ce'o" is just one of many ways to provide that. mu'o mi'e xorxes -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --047d7b3432c844ed6604facf4948 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

= On Sun, Jun 1, 2014 at 12:38 PM, Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name= @gmail.com> wrote:
=

But th= en you will say that (apart from very abstract propositions) propositions a= re events and events are objects. Then what? Replace all of them to just ob= jects?

No, some propositions de= scribe events, but the proposition that describes the event is not the even= t. And events are not objects (in some strict sense of "object"),= although both events and objects are spatio-temporal entities.
=C2=A0

I want stud= ents of Lojban (AI included) to understand how to form this or that place. = porsi1 require ce'o, casnu1 and kamni3 require jo'u. This should be= reflected in the definitions.

But in what sense does p= orsi1 require ce'o or casnu1 require jo'u? "lo valsi cu porsi = lo lerfu", "lo re prenu cu casnu lo tcima". =C2=A0porsi1 all= ows ce'o, it doesn't require it, and it allows it because "ko&= #39;a ce'o ko'e" basically means someting like "lo porsi = be fi ko'a jo'u ko'e". And casnu1 allows jo'u (it does= n't require it) because ko'a jo'u ko'e is defined so that &= quot;ko'a .e ko'e me ko'a jo'u ko'e .i je ro me ko'= a jo'u ko'e cu me ko'a gi'a me ko'e". But that'= ;s more about the definition of "ce'o" and "jo'u&quo= t; than about porsi or casnu.

What casnu1 requires is a sumti with more than one refe= rent, and "jo'u" is just one of many ways to provide that, an= d porsi1 requires a sumti whose referent consists of many things in order, = and "ce'o" is just one of many ways to provide that.
=C2=A0
mu'o mi'e xorxes

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