Received: from mail-la0-f63.google.com ([209.85.215.63]:46648) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1WrNat-0006Xg-VQ for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Mon, 02 Jun 2014 01:28:00 -0700 Received: by mail-la0-f63.google.com with SMTP id b8sf414508lan.8 for ; Mon, 02 Jun 2014 01:27:40 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=couKB67QPmGahOkrbn1OrIKrEs6ZHSdiKyc5Z7/Fry8=; b=skeGGzi7cs7yXnNoXDbpnJMOlGA3ll60Ts7qFl17se6ihEwrh2BT1hyfF2GPE1Yb6O zZmRm5DYmEf3/dw1/lGP8QAfR7f8s1iOzrqnR5Vbz6U+oKj9YhwMzjWPS05ouU7gVyBE dtPK/BoaF7hlti9/3p1Y6rh6uusgC/MQCNjIvL3eL4f2kt2NI/h9IdvTPti0Y4+vTrlZ 3Gjkt+1wXUPFhLpCIfYMi/6xob1nI61ZIcl/BplXOhCfjQesuPgWKcQav9awkh1eOksX 4Yta5rBKo6F4BzHEzSUd4JPV/ioJlx10YdVw3KSpodTaPel5My6kxLw0Kiegpt7sQRay r4Dw== X-Received: by 10.180.149.211 with SMTP id uc19mr23710wib.1.1401697660155; Mon, 02 Jun 2014 01:27:40 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.180.79.232 with SMTP id m8ls375901wix.38.canary; Mon, 02 Jun 2014 01:27:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.180.72.230 with SMTP id g6mr1009319wiv.3.1401697659480; Mon, 02 Jun 2014 01:27:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wg0-x22c.google.com (mail-wg0-x22c.google.com [2a00:1450:400c:c00::22c]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id gz10si158305wib.0.2014.06.02.01.27.39 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Mon, 02 Jun 2014 01:27:39 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c00::22c as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:400c:c00::22c; Received: by mail-wg0-x22c.google.com with SMTP id a1so4649382wgh.3 for ; Mon, 02 Jun 2014 01:27:39 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.180.14.72 with SMTP id n8mr19676193wic.53.1401697659378; Mon, 02 Jun 2014 01:27:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.194.25.163 with HTTP; Mon, 2 Jun 2014 01:27:39 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2014 12:27:39 +0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Specifying sumti types: another revision of gimste is complete From: Gleki Arxokuna To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c00::22c as permitted sender) smtp.mail=gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f46d04138a2511e27604fad62b1b X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_bar: - --f46d04138a2511e27604fad62b1b Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 2014-06-02 4:15 GMT+04:00 Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas : > > On Sun, Jun 1, 2014 at 12:38 PM, Gleki Arxokuna < > gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote: > >> >> But then you will say that (apart from very abstract propositions) >> propositions are events and events are objects. Then what? Replace all o= f >> them to just objects? >> > > No, some propositions describe events, but the proposition that describes > the event is not the event. And events are not objects (in some strict > sense of "object"), although both events and objects are spatio-temporal > entities. > > > I want students of Lojban (AI included) to understand how to form this or >> that place. porsi1 require ce'o, casnu1 and kamni3 require jo'u. This >> should be reflected in the definitions. >> > > But in what sense does porsi1 require ce'o or casnu1 require jo'u? "lo > valsi cu porsi lo lerfu", "lo re prenu cu casnu lo tcima". porsi1 allows > ce'o, it doesn't require it, and it allows it because "ko'a ce'o ko'e" > basically means someting like "lo porsi be fi ko'a jo'u ko'e". And casnu1 > allows jo'u (it doesn't require it) because ko'a jo'u ko'e is defined so > that "ko'a .e ko'e me ko'a jo'u ko'e .i je ro me ko'a jo'u ko'e cu me ko'= a > gi'a me ko'e". But that's more about the definition of "ce'o" and "jo'u" > than about porsi or casnu. > Okay, I will put {ce'o} to notes then. You said that porsi1 is a group. You also said that it's gunma1. But in another post you said that gunma1 should be "any type". Can you describe once again what "group" would mean? I hope this thread wont die out since I want to finish with the gimste as soon as possible. > What casnu1 requires is a sumti with more than one referent, and "jo'u" i= s > just one of many ways to provide that, and porsi1 requires a sumti whose > referent consists of many things in order, and "ce'o" is just one of many > ways to provide that. > > mu'o mi'e xorxes > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --f46d04138a2511e27604fad62b1b Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable



2014-06-02 4:15 GMT+04:00 Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas <= ;jjllambias@gmail= .com>:
=
On Sun, Jun 1, 2014 at 12:38= PM, Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wr= ote:
=

But then you will= say that (apart from very abstract propositions) propositions are events a= nd events are objects. Then what? Replace all of them to just objects?

No, some propositi= ons describe events, but the proposition that describes the event is not th= e event. And events are not objects (in some strict sense of "object&q= uot;), although both events and objects are spatio-temporal entities.
=C2=A0

I want stud= ents of Lojban (AI included) to understand how to form this or that place. = porsi1 require ce'o, casnu1 and kamni3 require jo'u. This should be= reflected in the definitions.

But in what sense = does porsi1 require ce'o or casnu1 require jo'u? "lo valsi cu = porsi lo lerfu", "lo re prenu cu casnu lo tcima". =C2=A0pors= i1 allows ce'o, it doesn't require it, and it allows it because &qu= ot;ko'a ce'o ko'e" basically means someting like "lo = porsi be fi ko'a jo'u ko'e". And casnu1 allows jo'u (i= t doesn't require it) because ko'a jo'u ko'e is defined so = that "ko'a .e ko'e me ko'a jo'u ko'e .i je ro me k= o'a jo'u ko'e cu me ko'a gi'a me ko'e". But th= at's more about the definition of "ce'o" and "jo'= ;u" than about porsi or casnu.

Okay, I will put {ce'= ;o} to notes then.=C2=A0

You said that porsi1 is a= group. You also said that it's gunma1. But in another post you said th= at gunma1 should be "any type". Can you describe once again what = "group" would mean?

I hope this thread wont die out since I want to finish = with the gimste as soon as possible.


What casnu1 requires is a sumti with more than one refe= rent, and "jo'u" is just one of many ways to provide that, an= d porsi1 requires a sumti whose referent consists of many things in order, = and "ce'o" is just one of many ways to provide that.
=C2=A0
mu'o mi'e xorxes

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