Received: from mail-pb0-f62.google.com ([209.85.160.62]:60523) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1WrbM2-0008DR-Ra for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Mon, 02 Jun 2014 16:09:33 -0700 Received: by mail-pb0-f62.google.com with SMTP id rp16sf1452962pbb.17 for ; Mon, 02 Jun 2014 16:09:15 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=49cjoPti2hWzDXsj83XNNNX+ddFSyzh3KPV8us9XTRA=; b=C8+Py/ICsFTAlp1wmm+jG1NYYqqSUnIit3h0Ye6BcrqqkDzg16n0g0tH/QyEBf+OkZ KfXhd8vogQgsgzmVF6u8D/82CgXIzU+zWpoYVf127q3yHQzuh9YnWY910wutxfy1Ja4g f+W9s+6wfJG/FiBwzsoehFk+PkET1exF+Gt3gupRh4eRkpj+1QtWOxKpT/fSa3Q+AIYf dVEYTJNXPFQqfkvoQhArN6WDLbG8VHgnm5NhHds716ol5TV2AuRMNqgLzXM0yoVtt/Yu TlSTRisJTpCY6pS8FkF+WfnY8kQTwReGM9Nuk12wpgC+UJpwSYUepoYJ8tt4OCwkMEsh ILEw== X-Received: by 10.50.73.196 with SMTP id n4mr406460igv.14.1401750555788; Mon, 02 Jun 2014 16:09:15 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.50.79.199 with SMTP id l7ls39256igx.30.gmail; Mon, 02 Jun 2014 16:09:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.68.197.73 with SMTP id is9mr14460848pbc.0.1401750555185; Mon, 02 Jun 2014 16:09:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ve0-x233.google.com (mail-ve0-x233.google.com [2607:f8b0:400c:c01::233]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id l7si810361vda.3.2014.06.02.16.09.15 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Mon, 02 Jun 2014 16:09:15 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:400c:c01::233 as permitted sender) client-ip=2607:f8b0:400c:c01::233; Received: by mail-ve0-f179.google.com with SMTP id oy12so5959457veb.24 for ; Mon, 02 Jun 2014 16:09:15 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.52.64.225 with SMTP id r1mr27542902vds.30.1401750555052; Mon, 02 Jun 2014 16:09:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.220.170.73 with HTTP; Mon, 2 Jun 2014 16:09:14 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2014 20:09:14 -0300 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Specifying sumti types: another revision of gimste is complete From: =?UTF-8?Q?Jorge_Llamb=C3=ADas?= To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: jjllambias@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:400c:c01::233 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=jjllambias@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=bcaec501629be5cf7804fae27b16 X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_bar: - --bcaec501629be5cf7804fae27b16 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 On Mon, Jun 2, 2014 at 5:27 AM, Gleki Arxokuna wrote: > > > You said that porsi1 is a group. You also said that it's gunma1. > Right, "lo porsi cu gunma lo te porsi". (I think x2 and x3 of porsi should switch order though.) > But in another post you said that gunma1 should be "any type". > Right, I think "lo gunma be lo fatci cu fatci .ije lo gunma be lo selsku cu selsku .ije lo gunma be lo selkai cu selkai .ije lo gunma be lo fasnu cu fasnu .ije lo gunma be lo dacti cu dacti" The only one I hesitate about is whether "lo gunma be lo namcu cu namcu", but whwther it'a a namcu or not, it doesn't seem to be of any of the other types. Can you describe once again what "group" would mean? > One that consists of many. Examples of groups: "lo gunma be lo xanto", "lo bende be lo gunka", "lo porsi be (fi) lo manti", "lo linji be lo mokca", "lo bakfu be lo grana", "lo derxi be lo tapla", "lo sorcu be lo plise", "lo stura be lo tersu'i", "lo liste be lo valsi", "lo trene be lo carce", "lo cecmu be lo cinfo", "lo mixre be lo skari", "lo salta be lo grute", "lo sanmi be lo lenku", "lo lanzu be lo mirli". It's a new entity that emerges from its constituents. I hope this thread wont die out since I want to finish with the gimste as > soon as possible. > When you say that casnu1 and simxu1 are "sets", you mean "plural", right? As in "lo ci prenu cu casnu lo cukta", "lo re prenu cu simxu lo ka ce'u prami ce'u". Or do you mean "set" as in "lo'i"/"lu'i"? Or both? Moving on to the x2's: You also have sets for mixre2, porpi2, spoja2, lanxe2, jbini2, fenso2, konju2, liste2, kampu2, ralju2, lanzu2, bilma2, kancu2, linji2, plita2, sarni2, jinga2 (why?), misno2, natmi2, pesxu2, ransu2, terdi2, gredile2, kombitu2, vlamei2; That suggests that you do mean "plural" by "set". But then there's cmima2, which shouldn't be a set by that rule. BTW, is there a difference between (set) and (set of any type)? (jibni2 and basti2 say x1 instead of x2.) (observer) is not a type in the same sense that proposition/property/number/etc are types. If you take a property from one bridi and move it to another bridi, it's still a property. If you take an observer out of a bridi and use it in another bridi, there's a good chance that it won't be an observer there. (observer) is a role, not a type. That's not to say you can't include roles as well as types in the definitions, but just to be clear. The type will be (object) and the role will be (observer). You seem to have redefined "cinza" from being a body-part to being a somewhat odd action predicate with an x2 agent (which is also a role, not a type). This change just makes the gimste more irregular. I think if you are to redefine "cinza" from being a body-part, you should eliminate the x2 altogether. cmana2 and volve2 have (place), but lalxu2 and klama2 (and several others) don't. Why those two specifically? I suspect (place) is a role too, since any object could be a place, no? Same with dikca2 (medium). mu'o mi'e xorxes -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. 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= On Mon, Jun 2, 2014 at 5:27 AM, Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@= gmail.com> wrote:

You said that porsi1 is a group. You also said that it'= s gunma1.

Right, &= quot;lo porsi cu gunma lo te porsi". (I think x2 and x3 of porsi shoul= d switch order though.)
=C2=A0
But in another post you said that gunma1 sh= ould be "any type".
Right, I think "lo gunma be lo fatci cu fatci .ije lo gunm= a be lo selsku cu selsku .ije lo gunma be lo selkai cu selkai .ije lo gunma= be lo fasnu cu fasnu .ije lo gunma be lo dacti cu dacti" The only one= I hesitate about is whether "lo gunma be lo namcu cu namcu", but= whwther it'a a namcu or not, it doesn't seem to be of any of the o= ther types.

Can you describe once again what "group" would mean?

=C2=A0One that consists of= many. Examples of groups: "lo gunma be lo xanto", "lo bende= be lo gunka", "lo porsi be (fi) lo manti", "lo linji b= e lo mokca", "lo bakfu be lo grana", "lo derxi be lo ta= pla", "lo sorcu be lo plise", "lo stura be lo tersu'= ;i", "lo liste be lo valsi", "lo trene be lo carce"= ;, "lo cecmu be lo cinfo", "lo mixre be lo skari", &quo= t;lo salta be lo grute", "lo sanmi be lo lenku", "lo la= nzu be lo mirli". It's a new entity that emerges from its constitu= ents.

I hope this thread wont die out since I want to finish with the gimste= as soon as possible.

When you say that casnu1 and simxu1 are "sets", you mean "= ;plural", right? As in "lo ci prenu cu casnu lo cukta", &quo= t;lo re prenu cu simxu lo ka ce'u prami ce'u". Or do you mean = "set" as in "lo'i"/"lu'i"? Or both?

Moving on to the x2's:

You= also have sets for mixre2, porpi2, spoja2, lanxe2, jbini2, fenso2, konju2,= liste2, kampu2, ralju2, lanzu2, bilma2, kancu2, linji2, plita2, sarni2, ji= nga2 (why?), misno2, natmi2, pesxu2, ransu2, terdi2, gredile2, kombitu2, vl= amei2;

That suggests that you do mean "plural" by &q= uot;set". But then there's cmima2, which shouldn't be a set by= that rule.
BTW, is there a difference between (set) and (set of = any type)?=C2=A0

(jibni2 and basti2 say x1 instead of x2.)

(observer) is not a type in the same sense that propositi= on/property/number/etc are types. If you take a property from one bridi and= move it to another bridi, it's still a property. If you take an observ= er out of a bridi and use it in another bridi, there's a good chance th= at it won't be an observer there. (observer) is a role, not a type. Tha= t's not to say you can't include roles as well as types in the defi= nitions, but just to be clear. The type will be (object) and the role will = be (observer).

You seem to have redefined "cinza" from being= a body-part to being a somewhat odd action predicate with an x2 agent (whi= ch is also a role, not a type). This change just makes the gimste more irre= gular. I think if you are to redefine "cinza" from being a body-p= art, you should eliminate the x2 altogether. =C2=A0

cmana2 and volve2 have (place), but lalxu2 and klama2 (= and several others) don't. Why those two specifically? I suspect (place= ) is a role too, since any object could be a place, no? Same with dikca2 (m= edium).

mu'o mi'e xorxes


<= /div>





<= /div>










=


=C2=A0

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