Received: from mail-we0-f184.google.com ([74.125.82.184]:50706) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1Wrrob-0008SQ-Oc for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Tue, 03 Jun 2014 09:44:04 -0700 Received: by mail-we0-f184.google.com with SMTP id x48sf634751wes.11 for ; Tue, 03 Jun 2014 09:43:50 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=NtzQYrT8NGPxQsyiXNJln/G0/5DrriLNQVxsO2S3c4E=; b=yhNpVI4pE7xIZDYZuGDO37MY/ddFCKgkxlza0iJ9QDetd/F9K+P1Ra0g6KWwulNA+W boS4hR3L3Sh3JNs8BMvU4Y9hnfY4hr5vaQUAf90iG1o+tPCJhhBqEeLKRDSWfyx1oT/V HJ8o70OokFNK+TaPlws3AZyPUq1te9O1GJ3eyOvZBATDwngsLzE3B8RgGcJ+tKkrISuj csSTmuBxkoedPO0kQice7tawdmXzL2yCCyE70wKRC8CWaQVyrcCZ64y2NFcGxHMGRBMK dpBa28jDBZeO/AQyG6I4eq18L13QnBFU9lPUss2bdNMlG6zorggphCs4vKWtnY4BsOUy 9YZA== X-Received: by 10.152.26.129 with SMTP id l1mr13800lag.38.1401813830274; Tue, 03 Jun 2014 09:43:50 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.153.6.12 with SMTP id cq12ls422943lad.86.gmail; Tue, 03 Jun 2014 09:43:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.112.85.201 with SMTP id j9mr524783lbz.21.1401813829237; Tue, 03 Jun 2014 09:43:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-we0-x22b.google.com (mail-we0-x22b.google.com [2a00:1450:400c:c03::22b]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id s1si213020wiw.3.2014.06.03.09.43.49 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Tue, 03 Jun 2014 09:43:49 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c03::22b as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:400c:c03::22b; Received: by mail-we0-x22b.google.com with SMTP id w62so7055966wes.2 for ; Tue, 03 Jun 2014 09:43:49 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.180.149.240 with SMTP id ud16mr34711208wib.3.1401813829119; Tue, 03 Jun 2014 09:43:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.194.25.163 with HTTP; Tue, 3 Jun 2014 09:43:48 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2014 20:43:48 +0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Specifying sumti types: another revision of gimste is complete From: Gleki Arxokuna To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c03::22b as permitted sender) smtp.mail=gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11c260e253749b04faf1378a X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_bar: - --001a11c260e253749b04faf1378a Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 2014-06-03 3:09 GMT+04:00 Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas : > > On Mon, Jun 2, 2014 at 5:27 AM, Gleki Arxokuna > wrote: >> >> >> You said that porsi1 is a group. You also said that it's gunma1. >> > > Right, "lo porsi cu gunma lo te porsi". (I think x2 and x3 of porsi shoul= d > switch order though.) > > >> But in another post you said that gunma1 should be "any type". >> > > Right, I think "lo gunma be lo fatci cu fatci .ije lo gunma be lo selsku > cu selsku .ije lo gunma be lo selkai cu selkai .ije lo gunma be lo fasnu = cu > fasnu .ije lo gunma be lo dacti cu dacti" The only one I hesitate about i= s > whether "lo gunma be lo namcu cu namcu", but whwther it'a a namcu or not, > it doesn't seem to be of any of the other types. > > Can you describe once again what "group" would mean? >> > > One that consists of many. Examples of groups: "lo gunma be lo xanto", > "lo bende be lo gunka", "lo porsi be (fi) lo manti", "lo linji be lo > mokca", "lo bakfu be lo grana", "lo derxi be lo tapla", "lo sorcu be lo > plise", "lo stura be lo tersu'i", "lo liste be lo valsi", "lo trene be lo > carce", "lo cecmu be lo cinfo", "lo mixre be lo skari", "lo salta be lo > grute", "lo sanmi be lo lenku", "lo lanzu be lo mirli". It's a new entity > that emerges from its constituents. > > I hope this thread wont die out since I want to finish with the gimste as >> soon as possible. >> > > When you say that casnu1 and simxu1 are "sets", you mean "plural", right? > As in "lo ci prenu cu casnu lo cukta", "lo re prenu cu simxu lo ka ce'u > prami ce'u". Or do you mean "set" as in "lo'i"/"lu'i"? Or both? > > Moving on to the x2's: > > You also have sets for mixre2, porpi2, spoja2, lanxe2, jbini2, fenso2, > konju2, liste2, kampu2, ralju2, lanzu2, bilma2, kancu2, linji2, plita2, > sarni2, jinga2 (why?), misno2, natmi2, pesxu2, ransu2, terdi2, gredile2, > kombitu2, vlamei2; > > That suggests that you do mean "plural" by "set". But then there's cmima2= , > which shouldn't be a set by that rule. > BTW, is there a difference between (set) and (set of any type)? > Well, I'm losing the track of this discussion. What are your suggestions on naming those places? Of course I can change all of them to just "object". Still I wish a formalized explanation was given for each place of what connective to choose. E.g. using {jo'u} for porsi1 would be strange. > (jibni2 and basti2 say x1 instead of x2.) > Fixed. > > (observer) is not a type in the same sense that > proposition/property/number/etc are types. > Okay I can change that from "x3 (observer)" to ''observer x3 (object)". If you take a property from one bridi and move it to another bridi, it's > still a property. If you take an observer out of a bridi and use it in > another bridi, there's a good chance that it won't be an observer there. > (observer) is a role, not a type. That's not to say you can't include rol= es > as well as types in the definitions, but just to be clear. The type will = be > (object) and the role will be (observer). > > You seem to have redefined "cinza" from being a body-part to being a > somewhat odd action predicate with an x2 agent (which is also a role, not= a > type). This change just makes the gimste more irregular. I think if you a= re > to redefine "cinza" from being a body-part, you should eliminate the x2 > altogether. > probably not {cinza} but something else. {cinza} is not a body part. They are tweezers. > > cmana2 and volve2 have (place), but lalxu2 and klama2 (and several others= ) > don't. Why those two specifically? I suspect (place) is a role too, since > any object could be a place, no? Same with dikca2 (medium). > The same as with "observer". One last question. nelci - x1 is fond of/likes/has a taste for x2 (object/state). Can we say: mi nelci lo plise mi nelci lo nu do limna mi nelci lo ka limna mi nelci li mu ? --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --001a11c260e253749b04faf1378a Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable



2014-06-03 3:09 GMT+04:00 Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas <= ;jjllambias@gmail= .com>:

On Mon, Jun 2, 2014 at 5:27 AM, Gleki Arxokuna <g= leki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote:

You said that porsi1 is a group. You also said that it'= s gunma1.

Ri= ght, "lo porsi cu gunma lo te porsi". (I think x2 and x3 of porsi= should switch order though.)
=C2=A0
But in another post you said that gunma1 sh= ould be "any type".
Right, I think "lo gunma be lo fatci cu fatci .ije l= o gunma be lo selsku cu selsku .ije lo gunma be lo selkai cu selkai .ije lo= gunma be lo fasnu cu fasnu .ije lo gunma be lo dacti cu dacti" The on= ly one I hesitate about is whether "lo gunma be lo namcu cu namcu"= ;, but whwther it'a a namcu or not, it doesn't seem to be of any of= the other types.

Can you describe once again what "group" would mean?

=C2=A0One that consi= sts of many. Examples of groups: "lo gunma be lo xanto", "lo= bende be lo gunka", "lo porsi be (fi) lo manti", "lo l= inji be lo mokca", "lo bakfu be lo grana", "lo derxi be= lo tapla", "lo sorcu be lo plise", "lo stura be lo ter= su'i", "lo liste be lo valsi", "lo trene be lo carc= e", "lo cecmu be lo cinfo", "lo mixre be lo skari"= , "lo salta be lo grute", "lo sanmi be lo lenku", "= ;lo lanzu be lo mirli". It's a new entity that emerges from its co= nstituents.

I hope this thread wont die out since I want to finish with the gimste= as soon as possible.

When you say that casnu1 and simxu1 are "sets", you mean= "plural", right? As in "lo ci prenu cu casnu lo cukta"= , "lo re prenu cu simxu lo ka ce'u prami ce'u". Or do you= mean "set" as in "lo'i"/"lu'i"? Or b= oth?

Moving on to the x2's:

You= also have sets for mixre2, porpi2, spoja2, lanxe2, jbini2, fenso2, konju2,= liste2, kampu2, ralju2, lanzu2, bilma2, kancu2, linji2, plita2, sarni2, ji= nga2 (why?), misno2, natmi2, pesxu2, ransu2, terdi2, gredile2, kombitu2, vl= amei2;

That suggests that you do mean "plural" by &q= uot;set". But then there's cmima2, which shouldn't be a set by= that rule.
BTW, is there a difference between (set) and (set of = any type)?=C2=A0

Well, I'm losi= ng the track of this discussion. What are your suggestions on naming those = places? Of course I can change all of them to just "object".
Still I wish a formalized explanation was given for each place of what= connective to choose. E.g. using {jo'u} for porsi1 would be strange.


(jibni2 and basti2 say x1 instead of x2.)

Fixed.
=C2=A0

(observer) is not a type in the same sense that proposition= /property/number/etc are types.
Okay I can change that from "x3 (observer)" to '&#= 39;observer x3 (object)".

If you take a property from one bridi and move it to another bridi, it= 9;s still a property. If you take an observer out of a bridi and use it in = another bridi, there's a good chance that it won't be an observer t= here. (observer) is a role, not a type. That's not to say you can't= include roles as well as types in the definitions, but just to be clear. T= he type will be (object) and the role will be (observer).

You seem to have redefined "cinza" from being= a body-part to being a somewhat odd action predicate with an x2 agent (whi= ch is also a role, not a type). This change just makes the gimste more irre= gular. I think if you are to redefine "cinza" from being a body-p= art, you should eliminate the x2 altogether. =C2=A0

probably not {cinza} but= something else. {cinza} is not a body part. They are tweezers.
= =C2=A0=C2=A0

cmana2 and volve2 have (place), but lalxu2 and klama2 (= and several others) don't. Why those two specifically? I suspect (place= ) is a role too, since any object could be a place, no? Same with dikca2 (m= edium).
The same as with "observer".<= /div>



One last question.
nelci - x1 is fond of/likes/has a taste for x2 (object/state)= .

Can we say:
mi nelci lo plise
mi nelci lo nu do limna
mi nelci lo ka limna
mi nelci = li mu
?

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