Received: from mail-ob0-f192.google.com ([209.85.214.192]:52192) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1WrxNN-0003ae-IU for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Tue, 03 Jun 2014 15:40:30 -0700 Received: by mail-ob0-f192.google.com with SMTP id va2sf1858721obc.19 for ; Tue, 03 Jun 2014 15:40:07 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=T0Cbc1qDdUKsU5Ab0swHUdSINHF+bD7ytQh3rShRDDs=; b=v8J7byKllstswA+mOuywXJm1a4vhO3EdRqhUqc/f7+PnCwYRF0cb6Ll07pmOt8iV/n xD7wimV+YsMXyVV9CaIa4JVPaBI/jhxm9iUklYxc68cw9G3X++sEEBIMKATL7M9jAOMp IssEKJZZXR0d1G6q8/yAqm6Q3sehGEiZ/wknIpEHDUOxAdki0Lx9Lli1xEnot7or2hZV JXH41UwcmIKNGoKgURU8Eqc906ylDHCHE/tFlAsWHWj6f7KFbgeSckPHgkI3ubGHT40v w2L+AYt67WZ3H9ADjGYIot664ULxPv/KHfKvSn7tI+c/u62Xl9WWsQ+XCBXMmjBsjGCW EqVw== X-Received: by 10.50.28.77 with SMTP id z13mr532813igg.10.1401835207398; Tue, 03 Jun 2014 15:40:07 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.50.36.5 with SMTP id m5ls511088igj.20.canary; Tue, 03 Jun 2014 15:40:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.68.253.66 with SMTP id zy2mr17531009pbc.1.1401835206457; Tue, 03 Jun 2014 15:40:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vc0-x229.google.com (mail-vc0-x229.google.com [2607:f8b0:400c:c03::229]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id ds6si38249vdb.0.2014.06.03.15.40.06 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Tue, 03 Jun 2014 15:40:06 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:400c:c03::229 as permitted sender) client-ip=2607:f8b0:400c:c03::229; Received: by mail-vc0-f169.google.com with SMTP id il7so3927366vcb.14 for ; Tue, 03 Jun 2014 15:40:06 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.221.44.73 with SMTP id uf9mr39410000vcb.9.1401835206271; Tue, 03 Jun 2014 15:40:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.220.170.73 with HTTP; Tue, 3 Jun 2014 15:40:06 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2014 19:40:06 -0300 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Specifying sumti types: another revision of gimste is complete From: =?UTF-8?Q?Jorge_Llamb=C3=ADas?= To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: jjllambias@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:400c:c03::229 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=jjllambias@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11337e4280f44c04faf6315f X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) X-Spam_score: -2.6 X-Spam_score_int: -25 X-Spam_bar: -- --001a11337e4280f44c04faf6315f Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Jun 3, 2014 at 1:43 PM, Gleki Arxokuna wrote: > > 2014-06-03 3:09 GMT+04:00 Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas : > >> >> When you say that casnu1 and simxu1 are "sets", you mean "plural", right= ? >> As in "lo ci prenu cu casnu lo cukta", "lo re prenu cu simxu lo ka ce'u >> prami ce'u". Or do you mean "set" as in "lo'i"/"lu'i"? Or both? >> >> Moving on to the x2's: >> >> You also have sets for mixre2, porpi2, spoja2, lanxe2, jbini2, fenso2, >> konju2, liste2, kampu2, ralju2, lanzu2, bilma2, kancu2, linji2, plita2, >> sarni2, jinga2 (why?), misno2, natmi2, pesxu2, ransu2, terdi2, gredile2, >> kombitu2, vlamei2; >> >> That suggests that you do mean "plural" by "set". But then there's >> cmima2, which shouldn't be a set by that rule. >> BTW, is there a difference between (set) and (set of any type)? >> > > Well, I'm losing the track of this discussion. What are your suggestions > on naming those places? > It depends on what the goal is. Are we just specifying types for each argument place, or something else besides types? You started by saying you were specifying mutually incompatible types. For this, the first thing to do is to list all the possible types, so we know what we have to choose from. "Mutually incompatible" is realatively easy to achieve for the more abstract types (proposition, property, relation, number), but for the more concrete types (event, sound, text, object) it is not always so easy to see them as mutually incompatible, since there's a lot of overlap. Another difficulty is that many of the specifications (usually inherited from the official gimste) are not about permanent types at all, but either about roles (agent, patient, instrument, observer, place, medium) or about distributivity ("set", "mass", "individual"). I put those in scare quotes because there isn't even an agreed definition for what they mean, so using them to explain something else is always risky. > Of course I can change all of them to just "object". Still I wish a > formalized explanation was given for each place of what connective to > choose. E.g. using {jo'u} for porsi1 would be strange. > It all depends on how you use it. Since "porsi" can just as easily mean "are sequences" as "is a sequence", there shouldn't be a problem in using a plural sumti formed with "jo'u" in x1. You just have to know that "jo'u" doesn't create an emergent single thing like ce/ce'o (and "joi" with some of its definitions) do. The important thing for porsi1 is that it has to be something that consists of other things, so that it can make sense to say that those other things are in some order. But "something that consists of other things" is not a type, at least not a type in the above typology, because all the concrete types there can consist of other things, and probably most of the abstract types too. If we make "set" another abstract type, and the only type allowed for porsi1, then we connot say such elementary things as "mi viska lo porsi be (fi) lo manti" because abstract sets are not the type of thing that can be seen. Most of the places marked as "set" are usually plural and non-distributive, i.e. it doesn't make much sense to fill them with a sumti that refers to only one thing, and when filled by a sumti that refers to more than one thing you cannot distribute the predication for each of the things, it applies to all of them together. But that's independent of the type of the things. To sum up: "type", "role" and "distributivity" are three different and mostly independent properties of argument places. (observer) is not a type in the same sense that >> proposition/property/number/etc are types. >> > > Okay I can change that from "x3 (observer)" to ''observer x3 (object)". > That works for me. One problem with the word "object" though is that sometimes it includes, but sometimes it is used in contrast with, sentient beings. I guess this should be clarified somewhere. These "objects" will almost always be people. > {cinza} is not a body part. They are tweezers. > Hmm, right, it's mainly a tool: "x1 is a/are tong(s)/chopsticks/pincers/tweezers/pliers [tool/body-part] for x2 to pinch x3" But it doesn't describe an action. "ko'a ca'a cinza ko'e ko'i" doesn't mean that ko'i actually gets pinched, just that ko'a actually is for pinching ko'i. If "cinza" was an action, the expected definition for me would be "x1 pinches x2 with x3 (at locus x4)". So I don't think x2 is an agent. I can see how x3 fits with the tool definition, but I don't really see why there is an x2 at all though, other than to make it a body part.. > One last question. > nelci - x1 is fond of/likes/has a taste for x2 (object/state). > > Can we say: > mi nelci lo plise > mi nelci lo nu do limna > I have no problem with those two. > mi nelci lo ka limna > I can accept this one, but to me it entails a separate meaning for "nelci" if it is to mean that I like to swim, as opposed to just liking the abstract property of being a swimmer: > mi nelci li mu > ? > And that's why you always bet on it when playing roulette? mu'o mi'e xorxes --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --001a11337e4280f44c04faf6315f Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

= On Tue, Jun 3, 2014 at 1:43 PM, Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@= gmail.com> wrote:

2014-06-03 3:09 GMT+04:00 Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas <jjllambias@gmail.com= >:

When you say that casnu1 and simxu1 are "se= ts", you mean "plural", right? As in "lo ci prenu cu ca= snu lo cukta", "lo re prenu cu simxu lo ka ce'u prami ce'= u". Or do you mean "set" as in "lo'i"/"lu= 'i"? Or both?

Moving on to the x2's:

You= also have sets for mixre2, porpi2, spoja2, lanxe2, jbini2, fenso2, konju2,= liste2, kampu2, ralju2, lanzu2, bilma2, kancu2, linji2, plita2, sarni2, ji= nga2 (why?), misno2, natmi2, pesxu2, ransu2, terdi2, gredile2, kombitu2, vl= amei2;

That suggests that you do mean "plural" by &q= uot;set". But then there's cmima2, which shouldn't be a set by= that rule.
BTW, is there a difference between (set) and (set of = any type)?=C2=A0

Well, I'= m losing the track of this discussion. What are your suggestions on naming = those places?

It depends on what the goal is. Are we just specifying types for each argum= ent place, or something else besides types? You started by saying you were = specifying mutually incompatible types. For this, the first thing to do is = to list all the possible types, so we know what we have to choose from. &qu= ot;Mutually incompatible" is realatively easy to achieve for the more = abstract types (proposition, property, relation, number), but for the more = concrete types (event, sound, text, object) it is not always so easy to see= them as mutually incompatible, since there's a lot of overlap. =C2=A0= =C2=A0

Another difficulty is that many of the specifications (= usually inherited from the official gimste) are not about permanent types a= t all, but either about roles (agent, patient, instrument, observer, place,= medium) or about distributivity ("set", "mass", "= individual"). I put those in scare quotes because there isn't even= an agreed definition for what they mean, so using them to explain somethin= g else is always risky.

=C2=A0
Of course I can change all of them to just = "object". =C2=A0Still I wish a formalized explanation was given f= or each place of what connective to choose. E.g. using {jo'u} for porsi= 1 would be strange.

It all depends on how yo= u use it. Since "porsi" can just as easily mean "are sequenc= es" as "is a sequence", there shouldn't be a problem in = using a plural sumti formed with "jo'u" in x1. You just have = to know that "jo'u" doesn't create an emergent single thi= ng like ce/ce'o (and "joi" with some of its definitions) do.<= /div>

The important thing for porsi1 is that it has to be som= ething that consists of other things, so that it can make sense to say that= those other things are in some order. But "something that consists of= other things" is not a type, at least not a type in the above typolog= y, because all the concrete types there can consist of other things, and pr= obably most of the abstract types too. If we make "set" another a= bstract type, and the only type allowed for porsi1, then we connot say such= elementary things as "mi viska lo porsi be (fi) lo manti" becaus= e abstract sets are not the type of thing that can be seen.=C2=A0

Most of the places marked as "set" are usuall= y plural and non-distributive, i.e. it doesn't make much sense to fill = them with a sumti that refers to only one thing, and when filled by a sumti= that refers to more than one thing you cannot distribute the predication f= or each of the things, it applies to all of them together. But that's i= ndependent of the type of the things.

To sum up: "type", "role" and "= ;distributivity" are three different and mostly independent properties= of argument places.=C2=A0

(observer) is not a type in the same sense that proposition/property/numbe= r/etc are types.

Okay I can change that from "x3 (observer)" to &= #39;'observer x3 (object)".

That works for me. One problem with the word "object= " though is that sometimes it includes, but sometimes it is used in co= ntrast with, sentient beings. I guess this should be clarified somewhere. T= hese "objects" will almost always be people.
=C2=A0
=C2=A0
=C2=A0 {cinza} is not a bod= y part. They are tweezers.
<= br>
Hmm, right, it's mainly a tool:

=
=C2=A0"x1 is a/are tong(s)/chopsticks= /pincers/tweezers/pliers=C2=A0[tool= /body-part] for x2 to pinch x3"

But it doesn't descr= ibe an action. "ko'a ca'a cinza ko'e ko'i" doesn&= #39;t mean that ko'i actually gets pinched, just that ko'a actually= is for pinching ko'i. If "cinza" was an action, the expected= definition for me would be "x1 pinches x2 with x3 (at locus x4)"= . So I don't think x2 is an agent. I can see how x3 fits with the tool = definition, but I don't really see why there is an x2 at all though, ot= her than to make it a body part..

=C2=A0
One last question.
nelci - x1 is fond of/likes/has a taste for x2 (object/state).

Can we say:
mi nelci lo plise
mi nelci lo nu do limna

I have no problem with those two.
=C2=A0
mi nelci lo ka limna

I can accept this one, but to me it entails a separate meaning for "= ;nelci" if it is to mean that I like to swim, as opposed to just likin= g the abstract property of being a swimmer:
=C2=A0
mi nelci li mu
?
<= br>
And that's why you always bet on it= when playing roulette?

mu'o mi'e xorxes


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