Received: from mail-wg0-f61.google.com ([74.125.82.61]:48966) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1WtBfw-0002ex-My for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Sat, 07 Jun 2014 01:08:40 -0700 Received: by mail-wg0-f61.google.com with SMTP id m15sf475973wgh.16 for ; Sat, 07 Jun 2014 01:08:21 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=pJ0AI0PJW2yOb++3uwpc2o4+384Ug+MZwsgUjtTgiNQ=; b=jRlkb2t2+3aZVLL9NHwISTb2hjbF58ZVcEbgVEBz/PKW/aKbNEJT7vNDbIpHltdv4K 63hMQdXVc9rRXsPVOtn3v3dqUskoL7Af0X/eJxue6fy/sVv+vkDysOV0lcX5VFY5Tabi zCwE8+E/TTYFit++AhJ+OfB+BIDlvUoJnTKd8u2jSivUOQmkbCJbL19DeoyPPzTeaa7/ D2RyDxvEz6hEGUW3v9odcPhA6rGSVetqEGuKKVfUnU8CN2ch3J0O4TXp5j+r2udnwD/1 FoivwajkwH6CvSSdn9afbcVcDnC4Hv3EBM8IKOYSWyna2F9mKiGiFt/7Tki1u+S/XYUr W8RA== X-Received: by 10.180.208.50 with SMTP id mb18mr44779wic.9.1402128501587; Sat, 07 Jun 2014 01:08:21 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.180.96.9 with SMTP id do9ls207903wib.53.canary; Sat, 07 Jun 2014 01:08:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.14.29.71 with SMTP id h47mr91949eea.6.1402128500741; Sat, 07 Jun 2014 01:08:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wi0-x230.google.com (mail-wi0-x230.google.com [2a00:1450:400c:c05::230]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id x7si91130wiw.1.2014.06.07.01.08.20 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Sat, 07 Jun 2014 01:08:20 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c05::230 as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:400c:c05::230; Received: by mail-wi0-f176.google.com with SMTP id n15so2043031wiw.15 for ; Sat, 07 Jun 2014 01:08:20 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.180.73.169 with SMTP id m9mr3365931wiv.53.1402128500599; Sat, 07 Jun 2014 01:08:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.194.25.163 with HTTP; Sat, 7 Jun 2014 01:08:20 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <53903D84.90502@gmx.de> Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2014 12:08:20 +0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Specifying sumti types: another revision of gimste is complete From: Gleki Arxokuna To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c05::230 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f46d043c7e1e35320704fb3a7b79 X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_bar: - --f46d043c7e1e35320704fb3a7b79 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ToDo: As of now there are still 13 instances of "scale" and 4 instance of "concept" remaining. Other news: as was found years ago 2D spreadsheet is not optimal for storing semantic tags. Take {voksa} which is both "Socio Communication" and "Socio Music/sound". This certainly makes filtering necessary semantic classes harder. Google Sheets currently can't search in filters with regexps so I can't merge all 4 semantic columns into one (thus getting a tag list). And of course the ultimate semantic classification should be based on mlismu. 2014-06-07 3:38 GMT+04:00 Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas : > > A few comments on some x3's that caught my attention: > > (1) What would be an example of a scale in dukti3? > I think dukti3 will usually be a property with kau: > > ko'a ko'e dukti lo ka ce'u jinvi ma kau > > ko'a ko'e dukti lo ka ce'u cinse fi ma kau > (ignoring the messiness of the "cinse" place structure) > > ko'a ko'e dukti lo ka ce'u zvati lo mo kau mlana be lo klaji > > ko'a ko'e dukti lo ka ma kau farna ce'u > > ko'a ko'e dukti lo ka ce'u dikca fi ma kau > > and so on. Are those scales? > > (2) You have "klani" backwards. x2 is the number, x1 is the thing, as in > all other measure words. "klani" is the generic measure word. > > ko'a klani li ci lo ka xo kau da bruna ce'u > > ko'a klani li pa pi mu lo ka ce'u citka lo xo kau plise > > ko'a klani li mu lo ka ce'u xo roi klama lo zdani be mi > > and so on. So, can we say that scales are property+kau? If so, then a lot > more places should be marked as "scale", all the comparatives for example= . > No, let's call them "property of xM and xN with {kau}" to avoid polysemy of "scale" within this gimste project. I corrected dukti and most other brivla from "klesi 2=3DGeneral comparisons= " semantic column. > (3) If lidne3 is something like a lerfu2, I don't think it's a plural: > > ko'a lidne ko'e lo latmo selyle'u > fxd > > (4) ckini1 and ckini2 can be of any type. "ckini" is the two-place > equivalent of "ckaji", they are completely general. > And srana1,srana2 too. fxd. > > (5) Why is cimni3 (quantity)? Is that the same as (number)? (I think > cimni3 should be dropped though) > Not sure why length and width are specifically mentioned in the definitio= n > of cimni, since cimni2 can be any property, not just a spatial dimension. > fxd. cimni3 ignored (i.e. removed but only from the list). > (6) I would have expected parbi1 (number), parbi2 (any type), parbi3 (any > type). Isn't parbi1 the number of parbi2 divided by the number of parbi3? > fxd > > (7) Why is lerfu3 a "location"? Isn't it normally a sound/phoneme? And > that mysterious "concept" shows up again. > I changed to x3 (located, sound). Probably "sound" is a pseudo-type but let it be a temporary place until brivla with this "sound" are marked in semantics columns. lerfu probably can stand not only for phonemes. Take Chinese characters. The sound encoded in a Chinese character is only part of what it encodes. Very often it encodes a whole verb-brivla. And yes, I think the mass of thousands of Chinese characters can be called an alphabet. > (8) ciska3 and tcidu3 "medium" is a role right, not a type? > Yes, fixed. I also dont understand why ciska4 exists but tcidu4 does not (I read with my own eyes/hands). Can't listening to audiobooks be called reading? > > mu'o mi'e xorxes > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --f46d043c7e1e35320704fb3a7b79 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
ToDo: As of now there are still 13 instances of "= ;scale" and 4 instance of "concept" remaining.
Other ne= ws: as was found years ago 2D spreadsheet is not optimal for storing semant= ic tags. Take {voksa} which is both "Socio Communication" and "Socio Music/sound". This certainly makes filtering necessary semant= ic classes harder. Google Sheets currently can't search in filters with= regexps so I can't merge all 4 semantic columns into one (thus getting= a tag list). And of course the ultimate semantic classification should be = based on mlismu.


2014-06-07 3:= 38 GMT+04:00 Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas <jjllambias@gmail.com>:<= br>

A few comments on some x3&#= 39;s that caught my attention:

(1) What would be an example of a scale in dukti3?=
I think dukti3 will usually be a property with k= au:

= =C2=A0 ko'a ko'e dukti lo ka ce'u jinvi ma kau

=C2=A0 ko'a ko'e dukti lo ka c= e'u cinse fi ma kau=C2=A0
(ignoring the= messiness of the "cinse" place structure)

=C2=A0 ko'a ko'e dukti lo ka ce= 9;u zvati lo mo kau mlana be lo klaji

<= /div>
=C2=A0 ko'a ko'e dukti lo ka ma kau= farna ce'u

=C2=A0 ko&#= 39;a ko'e dukti lo ka ce'u dikca fi ma kau

and so on. Are those scales?
=C2=A0=C2=A0
(2) You have "klani" backwards. x2 is the number,= x1 is the thing, as in all other measure words. "klani" is the g= eneric measure word.

=C2=A0 ko'a klani li ci lo ka xo kau da bruna ce'u

=C2=A0 ko'a klani= li pa pi mu lo ka ce'u citka lo xo kau plise=C2=A0

=C2=A0 ko'a klani li mu lo ka ce'u xo ro= i klama lo zdani be mi

and so on. So, can we say that scales are property+kau? If= so, then a lot more places should be marked as "scale", all the = comparatives for example.

No, let's call them "proper= ty of xM and xN with {kau}" to avoid polysemy of "scale" wit= hin this gimste project.

I corrected dukti and most other bri= vla from "klesi 2=3DGeneral comparisons" semantic column.


(3) If lidn= e3 is something like a lerfu2, I don't think it's a plural:

=C2=A0 ko'= ;a lidne ko'e lo latmo selyle'u

fxd
=C2=A0

(4) ckini1 = and ckini2 can be of any type. "ckini" is the two-place equivalen= t of "ckaji", they are completely general.

And srana1,srana2 too.
fxd.=C2=A0

(5) Why is cimni3 (quantity)? Is that = the same as (number)? (I think cimni3 should be dropped though)
Not sure why length and width are specifically mention= ed in the definition of cimni, since cimni2 can be any property, not just a= spatial dimension.

fxd. cimni3 ignored (i.e. removed bu= t only from the list).=C2=A0


(6) I would= have expected parbi1 (number), parbi2 (any type), parbi3 (any type). Isn&#= 39;t parbi1 the number of parbi2 divided by the number of parbi3?=C2=A0

fxd
=C2=A0

(7) Why is lerfu3 a "location&quo= t;? Isn't it normally a sound/phoneme? And that mysterious "concep= t" shows up again.

I chang= ed to x3 (located, sound). Probably "sound" is a pseudo-type but = let it be a temporary place until brivla with this "sound" are ma= rked in semantics columns.
lerfu probably can stand not only for phonemes. Take Chinese character= s. The sound encoded in a Chinese character is only part of what it encodes= . Very often it encodes a whole verb-brivla.
And yes, I think the= mass of thousands of Chinese characters can be called an alphabet.



(8) ciska3 and tcidu3 "medium" is a role right, not a type?
=

Yes, fixed. I also dont understand w= hy ciska4 exists but tcidu4 does not (I read with my own eyes/hands). Can&#= 39;t listening to audiobooks be called reading?=C2=A0

mu'o mi'e xorxes
=

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--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsub= scribe@googlegroups.com.
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