Received: from mail-lb0-f188.google.com ([209.85.217.188]:58909) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1WtYMM-0005aH-P0 for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Sun, 08 Jun 2014 01:22:01 -0700 Received: by mail-lb0-f188.google.com with SMTP id q8sf516775lbi.5 for ; Sun, 08 Jun 2014 01:21:39 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=unAxnxJfLkMx8blzZE/+ivjPr3UxTjz3JRhpI26f4Vk=; b=m946bCMgwedmAzEuDeDZeNkLfzq8TSkIIXtOYxXvTfV2rdtjoqVUAteOd+ioAcSrsO aHZmPSr0YjUPc5FKtWUpNW6K2IulzuqQJ5JyNG40plpoL5gG1gdRvnR4tYCoLNxREA3m V50ZLG2XejOAiYHUsEwkciiT5U7QXn31bTXfZ5eyHGEDMovfBJ7tCxDsWHRGt6Kb01Wt jWfKip3axIwASAd/yceei1XXfKbK65pISEijeezB75TguAPwMV0vCDjGG/ZCDXg9cmGu Ha9NuaXMlOoBDrvJpib0ANH0OoP70cSVGbDulyOzhgw2CJ4Otjkle+VH2MhpohfjwvkL eatg== X-Received: by 10.152.30.105 with SMTP id r9mr208724lah.2.1402215698825; Sun, 08 Jun 2014 01:21:38 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.152.10.4 with SMTP id e4ls215675lab.84.gmail; Sun, 08 Jun 2014 01:21:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.112.40.1 with SMTP id t1mr6171lbk.19.1402215698120; Sun, 08 Jun 2014 01:21:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-we0-x22c.google.com (mail-we0-x22c.google.com [2a00:1450:400c:c03::22c]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id s1si335730wiw.3.2014.06.08.01.21.38 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Sun, 08 Jun 2014 01:21:38 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c03::22c as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:400c:c03::22c; Received: by mail-we0-f172.google.com with SMTP id k48so4625849wev.17 for ; Sun, 08 Jun 2014 01:21:38 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.180.207.9 with SMTP id ls9mr18141026wic.32.1402215697964; Sun, 08 Jun 2014 01:21:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.194.25.163 with HTTP; Sun, 8 Jun 2014 01:21:37 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <53903D84.90502@gmx.de> Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2014 12:21:37 +0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Specifying sumti types: another revision of gimste is complete From: Gleki Arxokuna To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c03::22c as permitted sender) smtp.mail=gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11c3cdc093659f04fb4ec850 X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) X-Spam_score: -2.6 X-Spam_score_int: -25 X-Spam_bar: -- --001a11c3cdc093659f04fb4ec850 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Question. If located include both {nu} and objects can we allow both {mi cortu lo xance be mi} and {mi cortu lo nu xance mi} as non-ambiguous and meaning the same? This question is coming from Robin's paper on bridi math where he proposed a NU-cmavo {ni'ai} such that: "le ni'ai brivla x2 x3 ..." =3D=3D "le bridi be x2 bei x3 ..." But then may be can say now that ni'ai=3Dnu ? A separate question is about {ka}. Can we say that {mi kakne lo ka ce'u klama la paris} =3D {mi kakne lo klama be la paris} provided that ce'u is by default in {be fa ce'u}? 2014-06-08 1:53 GMT+04:00 Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas : > > There are very few predicates with types "xN (property of xM)" with M > N= : > > makfa x1 (property of x3) is magic or supernatural to x2 performed by x3 > > That's the only one where the property skips a place. I don't think x1 > needs to be a property of x3 though, couldn't we say: > > lo nu lo ractu cu canci cu makfa lo verba la djan > > I think makfa1 could be something that x3 makes happen, not necessarily > something in which x3 takes a part. > fxd. ur example added. > > vamjix1 (property of x2) is what x2 is worth of to x3 for use x4 > (property of x2) > This one I think is wrong. vamji1 is not a property of x2, it is somethin= g > that x3 is willing to give up or endure in exchange for obtaining or > keeping x2. > hm, okay. fxd. > > > kralix1 (property of x2) is a legal/moral entitlement of individual x2 > in legal system x3 (located) mardex1 (property of x2) are the ethices of > performer x2 about situation x3 (located) cfilax1 (property of x2) is a > flaw or defect in x2 causing x3 (located) jinzix1 (property of x2) is an > innate or natural property of x2 kampux1 (property of x2) is common among > x2 stecix1 (property of x3) is specific or particular to member x2 among > x3 tengux1 (property of x2) is a texture of x2 jibrix1 (property of x2) > is a job of person x2 frilix1 (property of x2) is easy for x2 > > steci3 should be "property of x2". > These seem fine, although they could have been defined in reverse order for > the most part. Here we seem to be missing some though: > nandu/tcaci/snuti/cimde > fxd. Do we need cimde3? > /vrusi?/tarmi? > ToDo: not sure about {vrusi}. this question is also relevant for all sensory brivla including viska/tirna/skari/smaka/sumne/panci/tasta/palpi/jvinu... > tseli2 says (property of x2) instead of (property of x1). > fxd. > > sisku x1 searches for x2 (property of x3) among x3 > > I don't agree with that one, I think sisku2 should be an object not a > property. > {mi sisku lo ka ce'u se zvati lo penbi vau lo nenri be lo mi zdani} > mupli x1 (any type) is an example of x2 (property of x3) among x3fadni x1 > (any type) is ordinary in x2 (property of x3) among x3traji x1 (any type) > is superlative in x2 (property of x3) among x3cnano x1 (any type) is an > average in x2 (property of x3) among x3rirci x1 (any type) is rare or > unusual in x2 (property of x3) among x3 > These should all have x2 (property of x1) > fxd. > > cpedu x1 requests or asks for x2 (property of x3) from x3 in manner x4 > (property of x1) > Not sure how cpedu4 would differ from just {tai}. May be remove it? The same question for rinsa3. > stidi x1 suggests x2 (property of x3) to x3javni x1 (located) is a rule > mandating x2 (property of x3) in x3 > > Shouldn't flalu follow the pattern of javni? > ok, flalu4 and flalu5 removed, javni is in "Socio Government, law & territory" now. > I think those are all. There are no properties in x3 or x4 that send to a > later place. > > mu'o mi'e xorxes > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --001a11c3cdc093659f04fb4ec850 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Question. If located include both {nu} and objects can we = allow both
{mi cortu lo xance be mi} and {mi cortu lo nu xance mi} as n= on-ambiguous and meaning the same?

This question i= s coming from Robin's paper on bridi math where he proposed a NU-cmav= o {ni'ai} such that:
"le ni'ai brivla x2 x3 ..." =3D=3D "le bridi be x2 bei x= 3 ..."
But then may be can say now that = ni'ai=3Dnu ?

A separate question is about {ka}.
Can we s= ay that {mi kakne lo ka ce'u klama la paris} =3D {mi kakne lo klama be = la paris} provided that ce'u is by default in {be fa ce'u}?


2014-06-08 1:53 GMT+04:00 Jorge Llamb=C3= =ADas <jjllambias@gmail.com>:

There are very few predicates with typ= es "xN (property of xM)" with M > N:

= =
makfa x1 (property of x3) is magic or supernatural to x2 performed by x3

That's the only one where the prope= rty skips a place. I don't think x1 needs to be a property of x3 though= , couldn't we say:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0lo nu lo ractu cu canci cu makfa lo verba = la djan

I think makfa1 could be something that x3 = makes happen, not necessarily something in which x3 takes a part.

fxd. ur example added.
=C2=A0

vamjix1 (property of x2) is what x2 is worth of to x3 = for use x4 (property of x2)

This one I think is wrong. vamji1 is no= t a property of x2, it is something that x3 is willing to give up or endure= in exchange for obtaining or keeping x2.

hm, okay. fxd.
=C2=A0


kralix1 (property of x2) is a legal/moral entitlement = of individual x2 in legal system x3 (located)
mardex1 (property of x2)= are the ethices of performer x2 about situation x3 (located)
cfilax1 (property of x2)= is a flaw or defect in x2 causing x3 (located)
jinzix1 (property of x2)= is an innate or natural property of x2
kampux1 (property of x2)= is common among x2
stecix1 (property of x3)= is specific or particular to member x2 among x3
tengux1 (property of x2)= is a texture of x2
jibrix1 (property of x2)= is a job of person x2
frilix1 (property of x2= ) is easy for x2

steci3 should be "prope= rty of x2".
These seem fine, although they could have been defin= ed in reverse order for the most part. Here we seem to be missing some thou= gh: nandu/tcaci/snuti/cimde

fxd. Do we need cimde3?=C2=A0

=C2=A0
/vrusi?/tarmi?

ToDo: not sure about {vrusi}. this question is also relevant for all = sensory brivla including viska/tirna/skari/smaka/sumne/panci/tasta/palpi/jv= inu...



tseli2 says (property of x2) instead of (property of x1).
<= /blockquote>

fxd.
=C2=A0

sisku x1 searches for x2 (property of x3) among x3
<= br>
I don't agree with that one, I think sisku2 should be an = object not a property.

{mi sisk= u lo ka ce'u se zvati lo penbi vau lo nenri be lo mi zdani}


mupli x1 (any type) is an example of x2 (property of x3) among x3fadni x1 (any type) is ordinary in x2 (property of x3) among x3traji x1 (any type) is superlative in x2 (property of x3) among x3cnano x1 (any type) is an average in x2 (property of x3) among x3rirci x1 (any type) is rare or unusual in x2 (property of x3) among x3<= /tbody>
These should all have x2 (property of x1)

fxd.
=C2=A0

cpedu x1 requests or asks for x2 (property of x3) from x3 in manner x4 (property = of x1)

Not sure how cpedu4 would differ from just {tai}. May be remove it?
The same question for rinsa3.
=C2=A0
=
javni
stidi x1 suggests x2 (property of x3) to x3
x1 (located) is a rule mandating x2 (property of x3) in x3

Shouldn't flalu= follow the pattern of javni?

ok, flalu4 and flalu5 removed, javni= is in "Socio Govern= ment, law & territory" now.


I think those are all. There are n= o properties in x3 or x4 that send to a later place.=C2=A0

mu'o mi'e xorxes

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