Received: from mail-vc0-f192.google.com ([209.85.220.192]:63153) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1WtdON-0007tB-KN for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Sun, 08 Jun 2014 06:44:18 -0700 Received: by mail-vc0-f192.google.com with SMTP id ij19sf514128vcb.19 for ; Sun, 08 Jun 2014 06:44:05 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=ypHaDv+cFgmvZmwkUekQxIYeX2OgLdzWgJD2/WT/rtI=; b=dMNwuULewQ/0I+36WkIjVYM6uupALHneuyBz7oahYnK9XwWUHwWF3eZVfGrE4rXJMH RoEhhXO1vZPG7TN7FYjgxUkY5hE5GNDE59Pt7Jewl1iDIyx50JbWe/rGmqGQVzGBcb9K nUHxKKzLY48vrDB9qGSP4EVp7G49eH3BKFvA+IK0pfD41br0tDbwOzpidWZo+tYzDxBJ nOz8gjqI3UpchzxhU7DPViu6JURfLZPVdpVvJpP+4qSK4tKq7Hp8+q7SRs30be3phPyr CQqPU+I6TYh1AMGgW1PTM1FgaVz7vQJXvU/FxIj6CvRR6Ox/OG8Ene9jEatfREmf96P9 mLDQ== X-Received: by 10.182.29.65 with SMTP id i1mr91519obh.12.1402235045369; Sun, 08 Jun 2014 06:44:05 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.182.165.103 with SMTP id yx7ls705690obb.14.gmail; Sun, 08 Jun 2014 06:44:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.182.33.66 with SMTP id p2mr10117226obi.8.1402235044794; Sun, 08 Jun 2014 06:44:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vc0-x231.google.com (mail-vc0-x231.google.com [2607:f8b0:400c:c03::231]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id xn6si1096351vdc.2.2014.06.08.06.44.04 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Sun, 08 Jun 2014 06:44:04 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:400c:c03::231 as permitted sender) client-ip=2607:f8b0:400c:c03::231; Received: by mail-vc0-f177.google.com with SMTP id lf12so1527686vcb.36 for ; Sun, 08 Jun 2014 06:44:04 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.58.196.231 with SMTP id ip7mr3522303vec.47.1402235044663; Sun, 08 Jun 2014 06:44:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.220.170.73 with HTTP; Sun, 8 Jun 2014 06:44:04 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <53903D84.90502@gmx.de> Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2014 10:44:04 -0300 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Specifying sumti types: another revision of gimste is complete From: =?UTF-8?Q?Jorge_Llamb=C3=ADas?= To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: jjllambias@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:400c:c03::231 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=jjllambias@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7b6dc7a4ba979204fb5349fd X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_bar: - --047d7b6dc7a4ba979204fb5349fd Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 On Sun, Jun 8, 2014 at 4:50 AM, Gleki Arxokuna wrote: > I think that since "located" can contain NU then "property" (which is > based on {ka}) is a subtype of "located". > E.g. in {mi kakne lo NU bajra} we have a "located" but in a more precise > {mi kakne lo ka bajra} we have a property. > "located" doesn't contain all NU. It contains nu (and therefore its subtypes mu'e, za'i, zu'o, pu'u) it doesn't contain du'u and ka. Propositions (du'u) are things that can be true or false. Properties (ka with one ce'u) are things that when applied to something are true or false. (Binary) relations (ka with two ce'u) become true or false when applied to an ordered pair. N-ary relations become true or false when applied to an ordered n-tuple. Properties could also be called unary relations, and propositions can be called nullary relations. All of these things are abstract, none of them are located. A proposition can _describe_ an event, which is something located in space-time. But the proposition itself is not the event. > (3) How is pandi4 a property of pandi3? >> > > Should pandi4 be a property of pandi2? Or both? > I have no idea, why does it have to be a property? I would have thought it was a proposition describing the syntactic/semantic effect of the punctuation. The creator of Loglan made a big deal about Loglan having "spoken punctuation", and the creators of Lojban bought it, that's the only explanation I can find for "pandi" being part of the core vocabulary, although I can't find a corresponding word it in the Loglan dictionary I have. Is pandi2 an unpunctuated text? Since terminators are often called punctuation in Lojban, does it mean pandi2 has to be a text without terminators, possibly ungrammatical? (4) Shouldn't bancu2 be of the same type as bancu1? >> > > Not sure if the boundary should be of the same type as bancu1/bancu3. > How could it be of a different type? If bancu1 and bancu3 are numbers, shouldn't bancu2 be a number as well? If they are objects, shouldn't it be an object? (5) pleji2/vecnu4 are most often money, not properties, and pleji4/vecnu2 >> can be goods. >> > > See my note above on located vs. properties. I can of course change these > places to "located, property". > I'll leave this for a more detailed discussion on possession, transfer and exchange predicates. (8) gismu2 and tanru4 should be something with one or more ce'u, not text >> or located.or proposition >> > > gismu2 = property of gismu3? > > tanru4 is just valsi2, isn't it? > tanru and gismu are both predicates, their meaning is always a relation. valsi are more general in what meanings they can have, the meaning of some valsi (gismu, lujvo, fu'ivla i.e. all brivla) is a relation, but the meaning of most cmavo is not a relation. > (9) Shouldn't farvi4/pluta4/kruvi4 be ordered like pruce4? >> > changed to "ordered plural of located" although kruvi doesn't have a > vector like farvi/pruce/pluta have. > linji2 is also like kruvi4 mu'o mi'e xorxes -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --047d7b6dc7a4ba979204fb5349fd Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

= On Sun, Jun 8, 2014 at 4:50 AM, Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@= gmail.com> wrote:
I think that since &qu= ot;located" can contain NU then "property" (which is based o= n {ka}) is a subtype of "located".
E.g. in {mi kakne lo NU bajra} we have a "located" but in a = more precise {mi kakne lo ka bajra} we have a property.

"located" doesn't contain all NU. It= contains nu (and therefore its subtypes mu'e, za'i, zu'o, pu&#= 39;u) it doesn't contain du'u and ka.

Propositions (du'u) are things that can be true or = false.=C2=A0
Properties (ka with one ce'u) are things that wh= en applied to something are true or false.
(Binary) relations (ka= with two ce'u) become true or false when applied to an ordered pair.
N-ary relations become true or false when applied to an ordered n-tupl= e.

Properties could also be called unary relations= , and propositions can be called nullary relations.

All of these things are abstract, none of them are located.=C2=A0

A proposition can _describe_ an event, which is someth= ing located in space-time. But the proposition itself is not the event.
=C2=A0
(3) How is pandi4 a property of pandi3?

Should pandi4 be a property of pandi2?= Or both?

I hav= e no idea, why does it have to be a property? I would have thought it was a= proposition describing the syntactic/semantic effect of the punctuation. T= he creator of Loglan made a big deal about Loglan having "spoken punct= uation", and the creators of Lojban bought it, that's the only exp= lanation I can find for "pandi" being part of the core vocabulary= , although I can't find a corresponding word it in the Loglan dictionar= y I have. Is pandi2 an unpunctuated text? Since terminators are often calle= d punctuation in Lojban, does it mean pandi2 has to be a text without termi= nators, possibly ungrammatical?

(4) Shouldn't bancu2 be of = the same type as bancu1?

Not sure if= the boundary should be of the same type as bancu1/bancu3.
<= /div>

How could it be of a different type?= If bancu1 and bancu3 are numbers, shouldn't bancu2 be a number as well= ? If they are objects, shouldn't it be an object?


(5) pleji2/vecnu4 are most ofte= n money, not properties, and pleji4/vecnu2 can be goods.

See my note above on located vs. properties. I can of = course change these places to "located, property".

I'll leave thi= s for a more detailed discussion on possession, transfer and exchange predi= cates.
=C2=A0

(8) gismu2 and tanru4 should be= something with one or more ce'u, not text or located.or proposition

gismu2 =3D property of gismu3?

tanru4 is just vals= i2, isn't it?=C2=A0

=
tanru and gismu are both predicates, their meaning is always a relatio= n. valsi are more general in what meanings they can have, the meaning of so= me valsi (gismu, lujvo, fu'ivla i.e. all brivla) is a relation, but the= meaning of most cmavo is not a relation.

=C2=A0
=
(9) Shouldn't farvi4/pluta4= /kruvi4 be ordered like pruce4?
changed = to "ordered plural of located" although kruvi doesn't have a = vector like farvi/pruce/pluta have.

linji2 is also like kruv= i4=C2=A0

mu'o mi'e xorxes

--
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