Received: from mail-lb0-f189.google.com ([209.85.217.189]:43428) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1WteJD-0000G8-Mt for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Sun, 08 Jun 2014 07:43:05 -0700 Received: by mail-lb0-f189.google.com with SMTP id 10sf540663lbg.26 for ; Sun, 08 Jun 2014 07:42:47 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=NVErrp8/oDaSfQJcV/kgHJmdvQO6CX0Xdl6/+H6qeQc=; b=AzqnAtdXTmqTss/WUzkffe8PjYo7D2JpFTBHRrl/jVG5Mq4IGrgtK8w6Z/hpFSfISI M3Zdn7iJml4U0kdnopSAR86aA5POrYsMrxrxeHy2MMvCTGCRmf+5WNkBimcf2Kcmvgm/ pYued/pAi9UswODLyYShWnAGjIopUSGNjuKCr5kZ8wFscJ/HJe/gCF0XSYokJCaWd6Pq fPTAwLnyzPB8kCowqQne53W4LfX8/3K8yQRl5wEWVf3PPGGDZ0s7+0VtHkcYHRFnYQUX wIbnvAoppSA8gWl/awvr3EsvM+wwt+DWDT/pZgXF3qaY5rxUqlUcw+CUag1SFFEL4JXN UfyQ== X-Received: by 10.152.43.67 with SMTP id u3mr511lal.7.1402238567793; Sun, 08 Jun 2014 07:42:47 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.152.6.3 with SMTP id w3ls239128law.72.gmail; Sun, 08 Jun 2014 07:42:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.152.42.141 with SMTP id o13mr162743lal.7.1402238566614; Sun, 08 Jun 2014 07:42:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wg0-x230.google.com (mail-wg0-x230.google.com [2a00:1450:400c:c00::230]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id s1si427516wiw.3.2014.06.08.07.42.46 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Sun, 08 Jun 2014 07:42:46 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c00::230 as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:400c:c00::230; Received: by mail-wg0-f48.google.com with SMTP id n12so4563519wgh.7 for ; Sun, 08 Jun 2014 07:42:46 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.180.105.72 with SMTP id gk8mr21024959wib.32.1402238566450; Sun, 08 Jun 2014 07:42:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.194.25.163 with HTTP; Sun, 8 Jun 2014 07:42:46 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <53903D84.90502@gmx.de> Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2014 18:42:46 +0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Specifying sumti types: another revision of gimste is complete From: Gleki Arxokuna To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c00::230 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f46d0442685aa4cdc804fb541ba9 X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) X-Spam_score: -2.6 X-Spam_score_int: -25 X-Spam_bar: -- --f46d0442685aa4cdc804fb541ba9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 2014-06-08 17:44 GMT+04:00 Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas : > > On Sun, Jun 8, 2014 at 4:50 AM, Gleki Arxokuna > wrote: > >> I think that since "located" can contain NU then "property" (which is >> based on {ka}) is a subtype of "located". >> E.g. in {mi kakne lo NU bajra} we have a "located" but in a more precise >> {mi kakne lo ka bajra} we have a property. >> > > "located" doesn't contain all NU. It contains nu (and therefore its > subtypes mu'e, za'i, zu'o, pu'u) it doesn't contain du'u and ka. > > Propositions (du'u) are things that can be true or false. > Properties (ka with one ce'u) are things that when applied to something > are true or false. > (Binary) relations (ka with two ce'u) become true or false when applied t= o > an ordered pair. > N-ary relations become true or false when applied to an ordered n-tuple. > > Properties could also be called unary relations, and propositions can be > called nullary relations. > > All of these things are abstract, none of them are located. > > A proposition can _describe_ an event, which is something located in > space-time. But the proposition itself is not the event. > > >> (3) How is pandi4 a property of pandi3? >>> >> >> Should pandi4 be a property of pandi2? Or both? >> > > I have no idea, why does it have to be a property? I would have thought i= t > was a proposition describing the syntactic/semantic effect of the > punctuation. The creator of Loglan made a big deal about Loglan having > "spoken punctuation", and the creators of Lojban bought it, that's the on= ly > explanation I can find for "pandi" being part of the core vocabulary, > although I can't find a corresponding word it in the Loglan dictionary I > have. Is pandi2 an unpunctuated text? Since terminators are often called > punctuation in Lojban, does it mean pandi2 has to be a text without > terminators, possibly ungrammatical? > > (4) Shouldn't bancu2 be of the same type as bancu1? >>> >> >> Not sure if the boundary should be of the same type as bancu1/bancu3. >> > > How could it be of a different type? If bancu1 and bancu3 are numbers, > shouldn't bancu2 be a number as well? If they are objects, shouldn't it b= e > an object? > > fxd. > > (5) pleji2/vecnu4 are most often money, not properties, and pleji4/vecnu2 >>> can be goods. >>> >> >> See my note above on located vs. properties. I can of course change thes= e >> places to "located, property". >> > > I'll leave this for a more detailed discussion on possession, transfer an= d > exchange predicates. > .i mi pleji lo nu mi lumci lo kumfa vau fo lo nu do ctigau mi .i mi pleji lo ka lumci lo kumfa vau do lo ka do ctigau mi .i mi pleji lo sicni do lo plise Which solutions are correct? > > (8) gismu2 and tanru4 should be something with one or more ce'u, not >>> text or located.or proposition >>> >> >> gismu2 =3D property of gismu3? >> >> tanru4 is just valsi2, isn't it? >> > > tanru and gismu are both predicates, their meaning is always a relation. > valsi are more general in what meanings they can have, the meaning of som= e > valsi (gismu, lujvo, fu'ivla i.e. all brivla) is a relation, but the > meaning of most cmavo is not a relation. > Can u give an example of gismu, tanru with all place filled? > > >> (9) Shouldn't farvi4/pluta4/kruvi4 be ordered like pruce4? >>> >> changed to "ordered plural of located" although kruvi doesn't have a >> vector like farvi/pruce/pluta have. >> > > linji2 is also like kruvi4 > fxd. and sarnu, konju... Some brivla moved to "Shapes" class where kruvi resides. > > mu'o mi'e xorxes > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --f46d0442685aa4cdc804fb541ba9 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable



2014-06-08 17:44 GMT+04:00 Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas &l= t;jjllambias@gmai= l.com>:

On Sun, Jun 8, 2014 at 4:50 AM, Gleki Arxokuna <g= leki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote:
I think that since "located&quo= t; can contain NU then "property" (which is based on {ka}) is a s= ubtype of "located".
E.g. in {mi kakne lo NU bajra} we have a "located" but in a = more precise {mi kakne lo ka bajra} we have a property.

"located" doesn't contain all = NU. It contains nu (and therefore its subtypes mu'e, za'i, zu'o= , pu'u) it doesn't contain du'u and ka.

Propositions (du'u) are things that can be true or = false.=C2=A0
Properties (ka with one ce'u) are things that wh= en applied to something are true or false.
(Binary) relations (ka= with two ce'u) become true or false when applied to an ordered pair.
N-ary relations become true or false when applied to an ordered n-tupl= e.

Properties could also be called unary relations= , and propositions can be called nullary relations.

All of these things are abstract, none of them are located.=C2=A0

A proposition can _describe_ an event, which is someth= ing located in space-time. But the proposition itself is not the event.
=C2=A0
(3) How is pandi4 a property of pandi3?

Should pandi4 be a property of pandi2?= Or both?

I have no idea, why does it have to be a property? I would have thought it = was a proposition describing the syntactic/semantic effect of the punctuati= on. The creator of Loglan made a big deal about Loglan having "spoken = punctuation", and the creators of Lojban bought it, that's the onl= y explanation I can find for "pandi" being part of the core vocab= ulary, although I can't find a corresponding word it in the Loglan dict= ionary I have. Is pandi2 an unpunctuated text? Since terminators are often = called punctuation in Lojban, does it mean pandi2 has to be a text without = terminators, possibly ungrammatical?

(4) Shouldn't bancu2 be of = the same type as bancu1?

Not sure if= the boundary should be of the same type as bancu1/bancu3.

How could it be of a different= type? If bancu1 and bancu3 are numbers, shouldn't bancu2 be a number a= s well? If they are objects, shouldn't it be an object?


fxd= .
=C2=A0

(5) pleji2/vecnu4 are most ofte= n money, not properties, and pleji4/vecnu2 can be goods.

See my note above on located vs. properties. I can of = course change these places to "located, property".

I'll lea= ve this for a more detailed discussion on possession, transfer and exchange= predicates.

.i mi = pleji lo nu mi lumci lo kumfa vau fo lo nu do ctigau mi
.i mi pleji lo ka lumci lo kumfa vau do lo ka do ctigau mi
<= br>
.i mi pleji lo sicni do lo plise

Whi= ch solutions are correct?



=C2=A0

(8) gismu2 and tanru4 should be= something with one or more ce'u, not text or located.or proposition

gismu2 =3D property of gismu3?

tanru4 is just vals= i2, isn't it?=C2=A0

=
tanru and gismu are both predicates, their meaning is always a r= elation. valsi are more general in what meanings they can have, the meaning= of some valsi (gismu, lujvo, fu'ivla i.e. all brivla) is a relation, b= ut the meaning of most cmavo is not a relation.

Can u give an example of= gismu, tanru with =C2=A0all place filled?


=C2=A0
(9) Shouldn't farvi4/pluta4= /kruvi4 be ordered like pruce4?
changed = to "ordered plural of located" although kruvi doesn't have a = vector like farvi/pruce/pluta have.

linji2 is also lik= e kruvi4=C2=A0

fxd.= and sarnu, konju...

Some brivla moved to "Sh= apes" class where kruvi resides.=C2=A0

mu'o mi'e xorxes

=

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You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
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