Received: from mail-yh0-f62.google.com ([209.85.213.62]:54374) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1WtlFc-0002sN-LJ for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Sun, 08 Jun 2014 15:07:51 -0700 Received: by mail-yh0-f62.google.com with SMTP id f73sf815772yha.7 for ; Sun, 08 Jun 2014 15:07:34 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=w8zHsTT08KdVBx9BvoYKveNviS6l3Xxt5EdTXp+D5eE=; b=E35dUfEoN1Px5mkuihJxnUcaZ4RYjpORSOhgRDwQSNrVsInfgBrBFgeSAEN/tNE61T hF+aO7oT2D9+HLokOplb0g1tJYZnhaR/sAi3iJ4QrypZ8qmPLnxNMfP0RcllA4uOs0hS 81XMUrLT3888zvRQkLpxpKJVrBZM1DwOHtw/gpRBzeNELajz7xHMuenACREjhBMignZp banuWRM6p9PxByldeIW6HcwUqx+hPVaWMj5uebD1sUx1MZUgzMZxty33tjYUMe5mOOAT 6MsfiMCmPJx8gh58oEnulyIZzfWQWW9Gnngws8WWh7FUfnoOU9QxsNO+UdN3Mw5rOn6I gLvA== X-Received: by 10.50.117.5 with SMTP id ka5mr181989igb.6.1402265254473; Sun, 08 Jun 2014 15:07:34 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.50.111.197 with SMTP id ik5ls425197igb.30.gmail; Sun, 08 Jun 2014 15:07:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.68.230.193 with SMTP id ta1mr8223187pbc.6.1402265254054; Sun, 08 Jun 2014 15:07:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vc0-x233.google.com (mail-vc0-x233.google.com [2607:f8b0:400c:c03::233]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id l7si1148834vda.3.2014.06.08.15.07.33 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Sun, 08 Jun 2014 15:07:34 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:400c:c03::233 as permitted sender) client-ip=2607:f8b0:400c:c03::233; Received: by mail-vc0-f179.google.com with SMTP id id10so3712831vcb.38 for ; Sun, 08 Jun 2014 15:07:33 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.221.40.193 with SMTP id tr1mr21856059vcb.31.1402265253858; Sun, 08 Jun 2014 15:07:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.220.170.73 with HTTP; Sun, 8 Jun 2014 15:07:33 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2014 19:07:33 -0300 Message-ID: Subject: [lojban] Possession/transfer/exchange predicates From: =?UTF-8?Q?Jorge_Llamb=C3=ADas?= To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: jjllambias@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:400c:c03::233 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=jjllambias@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11336a8e5654bd04fb5a525b X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_bar: - --001a11336a8e5654bd04fb5a525b Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 If we search for "pedantically" in the official gismu list, we find 15 hits, corresponding to the notes on these words: canja/cerda/cirko/cnemu/dirba/dunda/friti/jdima/jerna/jinga/kargu/pleji/prali/vamji/vecnu The comment is basically the same for all of them: "pedantically, for objects/commodities, this is sumti-raising from ownership of the object/commodity". This comment comes after saying that the argument place in question can be an object, commodity, event or property, so it's hard to say what the punctilious follower of the gismu list is supposed to do with these words. Are they allowed to take objects or not? If we search for "sumti-raising" we get those 15 plus xajmi and djica. In fact this is not really about raising in the linguistics sense of the term, so I won't be talking about sumti-raising. The question is whether argument places like these can take objects and/or events and/or properties. There are other words that involve possession/transfer/exchange but for which the gismu list doesn't say anything explicitly about "sumti-raising", for example: claxu/pindi/ricfu/punji/sabji/jmina/dejni/jarco/lebna/cpacu/jbera/cuxna/vimcu/cpedu/mipri/sisku/sarji /cupra/dirce/ferti/xaksu/tisna/daspo/ralte In the case of ricfu and pindi, for example, the list explicitly gives permission to use goods or properties in x2, without any "pedantically" warning. "claxu" on the other hand says nothing about the type of thing that can be lacked. It's hard to say whether this was done on purpose or it was just an oversight. I don't know whether in real-life Lojban there are people who eschew "mi dunda lo plise do" in favor of "mi dunda lo ka ponse lo plise kei do", "mi dunda tu'a lo plise do" or "mi posydu'a lo plise do". Let's cosinder these examples of "dunda": (1) mi dunda lo plise do (2) mi dunda lo nu mi gunka kei do (3) mi dunda lo nu do gleki kei do (4) mi dunda lo ka ce'u ponse lo plise kei do (5) mi dunda lo ka ce'u gunka kei do (6) mi dunda lo ka ce'u gleki kei do I contend that (1) is unequivocally correct Lojban, and that the "pedantically" notes should be removed from the gismu list. I contend that (2) and (3) are also perfectly fine, x1 being responsible for the event and x3 being the beneficiary. I don't see any problems with (4). The question here is, is (4) correct because the property is transferred from x1 to x3, or is it correct because x1 is responsible for x3 acquiring the property? I think the latter is correct, which also justifies (6), and it also means that (5) is not correct in the sense of (2), since (5) should means that I give work to you, not that I giive my labor to you. The definition thus has to be clear about whose property we are talking about when a place takes a property (the gismu list mentios properties but doesn't say whose property it is). I believe that that's basically how all of these possession/transfer/exchange predicates should work. Except for the basic ponse/ckaji split, which clearly distinguish possession of objects from possession of properties, all the other predicates can happily mix them up, and having two parallel lists for the ones and the others would be too costly. mu'o mi'e xorxes -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. 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If we search for "pedantically" in the offi= cial gismu list, we find 15 hits, corresponding to the notes on these words= :

canja/cerda/cirko/cnemu/dirba/dunda/friti/jdima/jerna= /jinga/kargu/pleji/prali/vamji/vecnu

The comment is basically the same for all of them: "pedantically, for object= s/commodities, this is sumti-raising from ownership of the object/commodity= ". This comment comes after saying that the argument place in question= can be an object, commodity, event or property, so it's hard to say wh= at the punctilious follower of the gismu list is supposed to do with these = words. Are they allowed to take objects or not?

I= f we search for "sumti-raising" we get those 15 plus xajmi and dj= ica.
In = fact this is not really about raising in the linguistics sense of the term,= so I won't be talking about sumti-raising. The question is whether arg= ument places like these can take objects and/or events and/or properties.

T= here are other words that involve possession/transfer/exchange but for whic= h the gismu list doesn't say anything explicitly about "sumti-rais= ing", for example: claxu/pindi/ricfu/punji/sabji/jmina/dejni/jarco/leb= na/cpacu/jbera/cuxna/vimcu/cpedu/mipri/sisku/sarji/cupra/dirce/ferti/xaksu/tisna/daspo/ra= lte

In the case of = ricfu and pindi, for example, the list explicitly gives permission to use g= oods or properties in x2, without any "pedantically" warning. &qu= ot;claxu" on the other hand says nothing about the type of thing that = can be lacked. It's hard to say whether this was done on purpose or it = was just an oversight.

I don't kno= w whether in real-life Lojban there are people who eschew "mi dunda lo= plise do" in favor of "mi dunda lo ka ponse lo plise kei do"= ;, "mi dunda tu'a lo plise do" or "mi posydu'a lo pl= ise do". =
Le= t's cosinder these examples of "dunda":
(1)= mi dunda lo plise do
(2) mi dunda lo nu mi gunka kei do
(3) mi dunda lo nu do glek= i kei do
(4) mi dunda lo = ka ce'u ponse lo plise kei do
(5) mi dunda lo = ka ce'u gunka kei do
(6) mi dunda lo ka ce'u gleki kei do
I c= ontend that (1) is unequivocally correct Lojban, and that the "pedanti= cally" notes should be removed from the gismu list. I contend that (2)= and (3) are also perfectly fine, x1 being responsible for the event and x3= being the beneficiary. I don't see any problems with (4). The question= here is, is (4) correct because the property is transferred from x1 to x3,= or is it correct because x1 is responsible for x3 acquiring the property? = I think the latter is correct, which also justifies (6), and it also means = that (5) is not correct in the sense of (2), since (5) should means that I = give work to you, not that I giive my labor to you. The definition thus has= to be clear about whose property we are talking about when a place takes a= property (the gismu list mentios properties but doesn't say whose prop= erty it is).

I believe that = that's basically how all of these possession/transfer/exchange predicat= es should work. Except for the basic ponse/ckaji split, which clearly disti= nguish possession of objects from possession of properties, all the other p= redicates can happily mix them up, and having two parallel lists for the on= es and the others would be too costly.

mu'o mi'= ;e xorxes

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